The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Ruger 77 Hawkeye African and 416 Ruger caliber - How good?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I'm eyeing a Ruger 77 Hawkeye in 416 Ruger (not rigbey) caliber. The gun would be used for Cape Buffalo and in the future for elephant. What do you think of the rifle and the round for this sort of hunting? Any thoughts are welcome. Thank you | ||
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The 416 Ruger should be plenty. Looking at the Hornady site they list the Ruger, Rigby and Remington within 15fps with 400gr bullets. 2400-2415. As to the Hawkeye I have never used on so can't comment. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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From what I have been told, cape buffalo and elephants have a real hard time reading and understanding ballistic charts and tables. As long as you do your job, my hunch is that the .416 will do its job. However, .416 ammo (Ruger, Rigby or whatever) is not exactly cheap, so you should be prepared to reload. Also, there doesn't appear to be a wide range of factory ammo loaded in .416 Ruger. No big deal, as long as you reload. | |||
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If traveling by air to foreign countries I would opt for the most popular, easily replaced ammo. My ammo made it to Africa all right but disappeared on the trip home. So, if baggage is lost replacement will be necessary. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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There is some solid reasoning behind that thought but if everyone heeded it we would still be traveling with muzzle loaders. There are a number of African PH's now using the 375 and 416 Ruger round and the rounds are gaining popularity every year. The 416 Ruger African is virtually a modern clone of Jeffery's original 404, with the ballistics of the original 416 Rigby. What is not to like ? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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The 416 Ruger will kill them with ballistics. The 416 Rigby will kill them not only with ballistics but also with class and style.  Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I used to say the same things about 375R and 375H&H. Then realized I could buy a 375 Ruger rifle (left hand) for $699 versus 3-8 times that for a 375 H&H and changed my mind  Mike | |||
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Thank you very much. Need feedback about the quality of the rifle itself. Read somewhere that they are poorly finished with sharp edges insides out, and the owner even said that the sharp edges would shave brass off the cases at they are being chambered leaving brassy shaves in the rifles. Is this typical or was his a lemon? Thank you | |||
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458Win, Ironically, it is my Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby that I think has the class over their Hawkeyes in 416 Ruger. Nice wood, integral quarter rib, express sights, no warning billboard. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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That is certainly true. I almost went with a LH .375R. I really don't think you can complain about the price ... a lot of gun for the money! I was lucky to find a BNIB, unfired LH CZ 550 Safari .375 H&H for under $1,200.00. I am looking for a LH .416 Rigby. They basically don't exist, unless you want to pay BIG $$$ for something like a Dakota. I would buy a LH .416R in a heartbeat if they existed. | |||
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Not a Hawkeye so take it for what it's worth. I purchased two M77 SS SA Rugers in 300 SAUM, one NIB and one slightly used - at least a year apart in manufacture. I've had zero feeding issues or scratched cases in either rifle. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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In that case I might have to agree with you , but you are paying for the difference as well. The new M-77 African and Guide models often have crisp edges that need a light buffing with emery paper to assure smooth feeding. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Exactly my worries! Thanks a lot for this. I better look at CZ's line of rifles. Thanks everyone for the invaluable input. Much appreciated. | |||
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I am left handed and have both the 375R and 416R rifles. Handling characteristics are great, the African and Alaskan both are well balanced and with scopes weight under 8.5 lbs. I have owned in times past a left handed CZ in 375 H&H, if you like heavy per caliber rifles then the CZ is your rifle of choice. With scope you have a 375 pushing 10 lb. To me, feels like a pipe filled with concrete in comparison to my Rugers. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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After you get the cd send it to Wayne at AHR to get it to full potential. Mike | |||
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There is nothing to "worry" about with the Rugers, simply a light rubbing of the sharp edges by hand with emery cloth. You can do it for free in 20 minutes. Wayne does very good work on CZ's, but he doesn't not work for free and making a CZ work 100% takes a good bit of work. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I have a Mod 70 in 416 Remington, a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby and a Ruger Hawkeye African in 375 Ruger. The Winchester required the least amount of polishing to get any rough or sharp edges out. The Ruger did not need much more effort than the Winchester and both were decent for factory rifles. I have still not gotten the CZ to where I am happy with it. I have put 5 times the amount of effort into the 550 action and it still does not let the bolt slide as smoothly as the other two. You are wrong to think the CZ will require less work to operate properly. I'm certain the action can be smoothed out otherwise I would not have bought it. I was just well aware it would take a lot more work to get it there. The cost factor will be much higher in the end for the CZ over the Ruger. Don't get me wrong I really like the rifle but it is very rough in stock form. Very good advice has already been given about the handling characteristics of these rifles. I would characterize the CZ as a full size truck and the Ruger as a nimble sports car. It all depends on what you like your guns to feel like. There is no doubt that carrying the Hawkeye will be less of a burden. I enjoy shooting both but if I had to pick one for a long hike or stalk then it would be the Ruger every time. | |||
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My 416R is one of the last rifles I would ever sell. It took my buff very cleanly and ammo is readily available. Best value for the money there is! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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I own Winchesters, Czs, Kimbers, Dakotas and Rugers. I love them all. For myself, I can easily say the Ruger African is the best feeling, handling rifle by far. It is the lightest and most trim rifle that I own. I own them in 375 Ruger and 9.3x62. I dearly love my Dakotas, and have a few more that I plan to buy, but I have to admit that the Ruger Africans feel better in my hands and are lighter/livelier. Also, they cost 1/10th the price of the Dakotas. What's not to like? Having said all of that, I bought, and had replaced, four Ruger Alaskans in 416 Ruger. Every one was a jammamatic. I gave up on them. I really like the African however (in the original non-muzzle brake model). | |||
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Reading the replies I thought I should go back to the Ruger, but then you say this and I just don't know what to do  | |||
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Let me try it another way. I have up to $1200 to spend on a Buff and Elephant rifle, caliber bigger than 0.4", and I can't work on it myself or send it to anyone to work on it. The reasons are too complicated but ultimately I want something that would work reliably out of the box. Appreciate any suggestions. | |||
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Keep it simple- Guns International has at least 4 Winchester M 70s in 458 WM listed in your price range. You can't beat a M-70--- "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Adrian4444: Sorry to disillusion you on the Ruger Alaskan, but that was my experience. In your OP, you said you were thinking of a Ruger African. Perhaps it's OK. I don't know, because I've never owned a 416 African. My Africans have been super, but again, they are in 375R and 9.3x62. I own more Rugers than any other make of rifle. I really like them a lot. The new Hawkeyes are the best of the lot, but I do love my RSMs as well. To be fair, I also own a Ruger Alaskan in 375R, and have had no problems with it. It makes me wonder if the only problem is the 416R feeding. | |||
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FWIW: I've NEVER purchased a factory rifle that DIDN'T need tuning up, the bark nocked off, the sharp edges cleaned up or the feeding adjusted, including my latest acquisition on Tuesday...AND EVERYONE has different ideas of what and what isn't smooth. The feeding for a 180-250 gr bullet is a HE** of a lot different than feeding a 400-500 gr slug. The physics and inertia of a heavy bullet lifting into position, being grabbed by the extractor or just being pushed and released by the rails and going into battery is a whole lot different than a bullet half that weight. Be careful with the economics and don't let the nickel wag the dollar or your hide. You might get away with a stovepipe when shooting a deer and still get another shot later, but the same stovepipe in a large cal with a pissedoff Griz, Buff, or Ele will get someone hurt or worse. Anyone going after DG that hasn't had his rifle tuned to as close to 100% feeding as possible must have a death wish or is not completely working with a full deck...no flame or diss intended. One very bad part of this internet thing is the armchair palavering. If you want information about getting your rifle to feed correctly go to the horses mouth...someone who is doing the work and stands behind their product...I SURE WOULD. Luck | |||
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Then I suggest that you get off that "internet thing" and leave it to those who are willing to give advice and deal with others respectfully. I'm sure you and your whopping 10 months of experience would be in high demand somewhere else. Just make sure to play nice and not act condescending over there.
It's very easy to de disrespectful behind a computer screen. Doesn't annoy anyone anymore. Have a good one, Mr. horse. | |||
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Actually not at all. I truly appreciate the advice and experience. I spent this morning going from one place to another, met up with a private collector who offered to help, and after handling some rifles that have been mentioned here and discussing the features I ordered an M 70. Thanks to Sean Russel as well for bringing it up. I will post photos and impressions once I get it | |||
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Hey, Hoss...I've been doing this game for going on 60 years, building my own rifles and a few for others...I have a rack full of shooters of all kinds and all calibers DG, CRF and push feed AND wildcats if my own designs...When I said " Go to the horses mouth" I meant it. If the rest of my opinion wasn't of any value then that's YOUR problem, I've given the same advice on numerous other forums AND directly to others for basically the SAME question for decades, mostly with positive results, and if you thought that I was dissing you, then YOU need to rethink your way of looking at things...this internet is full of people YOU DON'T KNOW. All the posters did was give you THEIR version of what THEY though was good advice...and unless you actually know them or have hunted with them how are you going to determine just what their level of expertise is... AGAIN...I'm not dissing ANYONE...I just don't know you. I don't really care if you believe me, or like me or whatever there Adrian4444, my opinion/advice is not only for you, but for others that read this...it's there for the taking or not. I WASN'T CONDECENDING ANYONE...maybe YOU need to see the intent BEHIND the words and not look for disrespect when and where there WASN'T ANY. and, per your last post you DID GO to "the horses mouth"...now it remains to be see if you follow up and get your M70 "tuned" up or not...but it really doesn't matter does it...most likely we will never meet...maybe that is BOTH our loss. Enjoy your toy | |||
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I did a poll on a similar question a few years ago and have since had AHR work on some rifles for me. They can work on more than CZs and are pleasant to deal with. http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/1771020111 If I wanted to rely on a rifle for buffalo and elephant I would want someone like Wayne at AHR to go though it. You should be able to buy a rifle from Gunbroker or GunsAmerica, etc., get it shipped to the gunsmith of your choice by the seller, and then have it shipped to your local dealer once it is massaged. Just make sure whoever you pick is well versed in big bore DGRs. For me the additional cost is worth it in peace of mind. You might get a new Model 70 or Ruger and never have any problems with it. Hard to be sure though. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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I own 3 Ruger Hawkeyes.. They are cheap but have become my favourite rifles... For a reason.. They just feel good.. I would have a gunsmith fine tune ANY factory made rifle I buy.. No matter what company it came from.. Just to be sure.. The Rugers in 375R was good to go right out of the box, have no experience with the 416R.. Therefore - I would suggest you go the Ruger way but spend a check at a competent gunsmith before taking it to Africa (or anywhere else..)... As you should do with any factory made rifle... | |||
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I naturally agree with buffalo and the others about making sure a DG rifle is ready for hunting. However, I do not automatically drop off my rifle to my gunsmith and have him 'check it over'. I instead check it over myself at home for things like enough relief at the tang, trigger pull, roughness of feeding, etc. Then I take it to the range and check for reliable feeding of live rounds, accuracy, floorplate latch reliability, etc. I'm sure everyone on this forum does the same. If I find no problems, I do not spend any money with my gunsmith. I of course do not check these things just once before a DG hunt in Africa. I spend many ranges sessions doing the same tests over and over, giving the gremlins every opportunity to show themselves. I seem to have the most feeding problems with cartridges of 416 Ruger, 416 Rigby, and 505 Gibbs. Gunsmiths have told me that the larger the cartridge diameter, the more difficult the geometry of faultless feeding. I have certainly found this to be true in my experience, however, I have had several makes of rifles have no problems at all with these same cartridges. They can obviously be made to work properly. So the advice already given on this thread is sound. If in any doubt of reliability of a DG rifle, either check it out yourself, or have someone qualified do so. I have spent a lot of money on some of my large caliber DG rifles with gunsmiths when some things were not right. This you must do when you purchase factory rifles. I got tired of always spending money to 'fix' factory rifles and that is why I gave up on the Ruger Alaskan 416R. I decided that it should be fixed on Ruger's dime. Ruger was great and kept sending me new rifles, but each one was a jammamatic. I don't mean that the feeding was rough or not slick. The first rifle would not feed from the left rail. The second rifle would not feed from the right rail. The third rifle would not feed from either rail. The fourth rifle they sent me was actually the same third rifle (same serial number). At that point I was done. I have to say that I have never had this much trouble with my Ruger rifles. If I had, I would not have continued to buy so many of them. My personal conclusion (and it may very well be wrong), was that Ruger did not engineer (re-engineer?) the rails of the 416R after they made the 375R. On a custom or semi custom rifle, I believe one should be able to send the rifle back and get complete satisfaction (in a perfect world). My last rifle purchase was my Dakota Safari 404 Jeffrey, which they made for me at my specifications. During my 'trials testing' before I took it to hunt with Andrew Baldry in Zambia this past summer, I noticed a feeding problem. I always test this with every iteration possible: one in the chamber and 1) full mag., 2) one less in mag., 3) two less in mag, etc. to 4) empty mag. Then it starts over with empty chamber and 1) full mag. 2) one less in mag. Etc., etc. Lo & behold, only one iteration failed on my 404, and it failed every single time. With an empty chamber and a full mag., when the bolt was initially drawn back, the top round in the mag. popped out of the rifle into the air and onto the ground. Most members here can probably figure this problem out. Back to Dakota it went. A rush order was put on it and I had the rifle back in one week, problem solved, no charge. Good luck with your rifle, whichever make and caliber you choose. | |||
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Excellent advice, and exactly what I intend on doing. I'll get a few snap caps and a selection of live rounds, then will test it thoroughly both at home and at the range. Hopefully this would break it in and smooth things out. If I get any issues with reliability I'll post here and see if you can give me pointers on fixing it. Sending it to someone is a last resort because of the immense logistical difficulties. Thanks all | |||
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Adrian4444: Hope everything goes smoothly for you. If you do have initial problems and need advice, I would highly recommend you not seek my advice, but rather the many experts who post regularly on this forum. I am not a gunsmith, and hence, I spend money with such when I have problems. We are really lucky to have gunmakers, gunsmiths, etc. as forum members. | |||
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Class has never killed a game animal. I guess my stainless and fibreglass Rem 700 in 416 Rem is a non-killer...:-) No classy blued steel and walnut.... not controlled feed either...a triple whammy against this 416...hilarious....:-) If I hadn't happened across my McMillan stocked Rem Custom Shop 416 I may have built a 416 Ruger. | |||
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Just get Frank to sell you one of his Whitworths in 458 WM and have it rechambered to 458 Lott. I've done two, but both got sold to people who offered me a lot more $$$ than I had in them. I always seem to have a dozen big bore (.40 caliber or bigger) around the house, or in process. I think it's the masochistic streak in me... | |||
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Here is a photo I submitted for my piece in the new Rifle magazine Big Bore magazine but it got bumped. It shows the Ruger 416 in comparison with my Jeffery 404 that was delivered in Jan of 1907. The similarities are striking in handling and performance.  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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That Jeffery .404 looks awesome. If you decide to post some more pictures, would love to see them. Mike | |||
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Here is another one comparing the Jeffery 404 with the Rigby 416. You can see how much slimmer and handier the 404 is.  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Thats one of the few decent looking, to my eye, Rugers I have seen. I am not keen on the Rugers after a couple of bad experiences with them. Both had to be replaced. The 416 ruger should do the job. | |||
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Very timely subject as I was just going to ask the asme question as the OP. The main reason I was looking at the 416R was it was engineered for the shorter barrel and action. I have been looking at the CZ in 458 Lott and 416 Rigby but wanted the barrel cut to 21". I figured with the Ruger I would not have to worry about the velocity loss. Plus, I am all for pretty rifles but there is something to be said about the utilitarian look of the Ruger Guide gun. The CZs I hae been looking at had their "poly/kevlar" stock and I have been really thinking about replacing my CZ 550FS with a McMillan stock. I guess I like ugly  | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Ruger 77 Hawkeye African and 416 Ruger caliber - How good?
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