Have you guys seen this Garrett 458 solid test?
Can the 45-70 really out penetrate the 458Lott?
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

This has been discussed dozens, if not hundreds of times here and on the African hunting forum.

Use the 'find' button.

George

p=mv

BTW, "p" stands for momentum, not penetration. "m" is mass and "v" is velocity.

Using that formula, 1500 f.p.s. is not a higher multiple of the mass of a .458 bullet than 2150 f.p.s. "p" is therefore always going to be greater in a Win. Mag. than a .45/70.

Other factors may enter the matrix when a bullet enters media, like bullet shape (parasitic, wave, form drag, etc.), loss of rotation rate of the bullet and resultant gyroscopic (a destabilizing?) effect, but to my simple mind, my .458 diameter bullet beginning at 2150 f.p.s. has to get to 1500 f.p.s. at some point during the penetration of media.

Why, then, would it suddenly (when it reached 1500 f.p.s.) slow down faster and penetrate less than a bullet whose only difference is that it came out of a .45/70 rifle instead of a Win. Mag?

Does heat from increased velocity make the bullet more sticky? Does the faster bullet more rapidly quit spinning to the point that stability is lost?.....

I've never seen a bullet marked so that deceleration of spin can be measured by checking revolutions to inches penetrated.... and then determine at what r.p.m. the bullet wanders.

Should be easy to do with a high speed camera and clear media.

Just wondering aloud, so to speak.

But only The Shadow and Randy know, I guess.

Sounds like a natural for Michael458 to test. Perhaps he already has though.

465H&H

If its a solid and over 375 Michael has tested it!

quote:

Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
Have you guys seen this Garrett 458 solid test?
Can the 45-70 really out penetrate the 458Lott?
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

This crap is so old and outdated its plain funny...............

Garrett did not lie, and his data is sorta correct, but like a good statistician he has things leaning the way he wants them to lean..... In favor of his big cast hammerhead flat nose ammo. The deck is stacked in these tests... Oranges are not Oranges, they are prunes!!!!!!

Garrett told the truth.. two ways! Of course a 420-540 gr Flat Nose hard cast bullet, driven at velocities that do not upset the nose will out penetrate a 500 gr ROUND NOSE bullet from 458 Win or 458 Lott.... Drive that velocity high enough to deform the nose of the Hard Cast, and probably not. Remember, we can only get anything from 14 inches to 25 inches with most any of the Round Nose Solids...We have NoNCons that can drive deeper than that!.... So sure, if you stack the test in favor of the 45/70 like this, it will out penetrate the larger faster 458s......

Second way.... Using the same hard cast bullets in both cartridges 45/70 and 458 anything else. Drive that hard cast fast enough, nose will deform, penetration becomes less. Drive that bullet slow, 1500 fps, nose stays intact, drives deeper. So if you loaded to 2100 fps and the nose deforms, of course it will not penetrate as deep....again.....

Garrett does not compare Apples to Apples and it is just that simple.......

Now if we take a proper BBW#13 450-480 gr in 458 Win or 458 Lott at 2100-2400, it will out penetrate the hell out of the Garrett 45/70s.....

If you take a 325 gr .458 caliber BBW#13 and run it at 2000 fps in 45/70 and run it at 2400 fps in 458 Winchester, the 458 Winchester will out penetrate the 45/70 simply because of velocity.

What are the 8 Known Factors of Solid Bullet Penetration??????

Again and again..........

#1 Meplat Size........... 65% to 70% being optimum for terminal Stability and depth of penetration. Go over 70% meplat of caliber and depth of penetration decreases, stability remains. Less than 65% meplat of caliber then Terminal Stability is LESS, and one must rely on other factors to enhance terminal stability. If Terminal Stability suffers, so does depth of straight line penetration.

#2 Nose Profile..... All FN Solids are not created equal. There are good nose profiles, poor nose profiles and excellent nose profiles. The two best Nose Profiles available today come from Cutting Edge and North Fork........ Both of these with respective 67% and 68% meplat of caliber......

#3 Radius Edge of Meplat......Fact, radius edge penetrates deeper and straighter than a sharp edge.

#4 Construction and Material.... Simple fact, brass is harder than copper, copper and brass are harder than copper jacketed lead, copper jacketed lead is harder than hard cast lead, hard cast lead is harder than pure soft lead and so on, and so forth and blah blah blah......

#5 Nose Projection...... Nose projection above bands or bearing surface, more is better. A .700 projection above bands will drive deeper than a .350 projection above bands.... Both being the same of course.....

Above Factors concern bullet design.....

#6 Velocity....... Most good nose profiles, CEB, North Fork, Barnes Banded will produce deeper penetration with more velocity. CEB and North Fork can be significant, Barnes Banded not as much. Just examples. In the case of Garrett, velocity can work the other way... More can be less, because of "Construction & Material......

#7 Twist Rate..... Twist rate comes into effect with a less than properly designed bullet, bullets of 60% meplat of caliber or less, a faster twist rate will increase straight line penetration, or terminal stability to a point. Regardless, at some point these bullets will go unstable, but a faster twist rate can gain some depth of penetration before instability takes over.

#8 Sectional Density.... Today, SD is not so important, and is dead last in the Penetration of Solid Factors... It is easy to get a 325 gr .458 #13 Solid to out penetrate a 500 gr 458 Round Nose... Every day of the week, every single test. However, a 450 gr #13 SOlid will out penetrate a 325 #13 Solid, all other factors being equal........ We see #1 and #2 being many many times more important than SD...

Michael

And how do we know that Michael is correct? Because many of us have applied his research and verified it in the field against big, hairy things that are capable of hurting the less than serious DG hunter. And we have done it repeatedly.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
And how do we know that Michael is correct? Because many of us have applied his research and verified it in the field against big, hairy things that are capable of hurting the less than serious DG hunter. And we have done it repeatedly.

And we are going to keep on doing it just to make damn sure!!

Simple hocus-pocus marketing BS to justify selling a $10. box of ammo that you can make at home into a $120 a box 'super ammo'.

This page is written by Randy Garret himself.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/modern4570.html

He says:

"By comparison, the 45-70 can be loaded with blunt non-expanding hard-cast bullets that produce much deeper penetration than the 458 with expanding bullets, and cut a much larger wound channel than the 458 with roundnose solids."

He did not lie or hold the truth at an angle, every word is perfectly true. A solid (blunt non-expanding), even at less speed, will go deeper than an expanding bullet that is driven faster. That is exactly what he says. Randy then continues to say that FN solids will cut a wider wound channel than round nose solids, which is also true. Note that here, he does not mention penetration depth. The roundnose solid, from a 458WM will go much deeper than an FN solid from a 45-70 but the 45-70 wound channel will be wider, just not as deep.

So, entirely true: A slow FN will go deeper than a fast expanding bullet and a slow FN will cut a wider wound channel than a fast RN.

If one compares bullets of similar construction:

A slow hard cast FN will go deeper than a fast hard cast FN because a fast hard cast FN will probably break up. So a 45-70 is better than a 458WM with hard cast FN bullets if penetration depth is required. But who uses hard cast FNs in a 458WM except for plinking?

A slow GSC FN will go deep when fired from a 45-70. A faster GSC FN will go deeper when fired from a 458WM.

A slow expanding bullet, fired from a 45-70 is unreliable. It may not open up and then it may tumble. A faster expanding bullet, such as the 400gr HV, when fired from a 458WM is a sure killer, every time.



Michael,

I am curious. How did you arrive at this fact?

quote:

#3 Radius Edge of Meplat......Fact, radius edge penetrates deeper and straighter than a sharp edge.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:


Michael,

I am curious. How did you arrive at this fact?

quote:

#3 Radius Edge of Meplat......Fact, radius edge penetrates deeper and straighter than a sharp edge.

Lots of test work between sharp edge meplats and radius edge meplats of the same % of caliber..... If both are 65% both are more than stable to accomplish anything, however right at the very end of penetration much of the time the sharper edge meplats become some less stable. Penetration depth is less as well, not by much, just a few inches, but consistently. This Factor is of course of less importance than meplat size, or nose profile, and probably construction/material as well.... I might should place this factor actually at #5 than #3 when taking #3-#5 only into consideration....

M

Thanks Michael,

That set me thinking, which may or may not be advisable

Below is an illustration of a sharp edged bullet with a 65% meplat and a radiused edge bullet with a 65% meplat. The third illustration is of the two bullets superimposed. The bullet with the sharp edged meplat has a steeper nose angle than the bullet with the radius on the edge.

Is it not the steeper angle of the nose cone that promotes tumbling, less penetration and stability rather than the sharp edged meplat?

quote:

Is it not the steeper angle of the nose cone that promotes tumbling, less penetration and stability rather than the sharp edged meplat?

That would be my thoughts for the most part.......

The testing done here was with the BBW#13 sharp vs radius.... Never really had anything tumble, but at the end of penetration the sharp edge would go unstable, and slightly less penetration.....

Michael

Thanks for all the great info!
I was checking for data to reload some 500gr.Barnes solids in a Ruger #1 45-70 and found the Garret site link.
I knew you guys would have the all the answers!
Can the 500gr.Barnes solid be loaded in the 45-70 Ruger #1?
If yes,What is a good start load with IMR-4064?

http://www.barnesbullets.com/i...45-70RugerNo1Web.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
Can the 500gr.Barnes solid be loaded in the 45-70 Ruger #1?
If yes,What is a good start load with IMR-4064?

http://www.barnesbullets.com/i...45-70RugerNo1Web.pdf

Because of case capacity in 45/70 you would be much better served with a lighter solid... 400-450
grs..............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Is it not the steeper angle of the nose cone that promotes tumbling, less penetration and stability rather than the sharp edged meplat?

That would be my thoughts for the most part.......

The testing done here was with the BBW#13 sharp vs radius.... Never really had anything tumble, but at the end of penetration the sharp edge would go unstable, and slightly less penetration.....

Michael

If I might add a comment here - best of my recollection (I'm on my iPad so don't have quick access to my thread notes) the 'sharp edge' vs 'radius edge' bullet testing was accomplished with identical nose cones. The 'radius edge' bullet was the 'sharp edge' bullet with the sharp edge radiused, no other change to the bullet, so there was a slight difference to the actual flat meplat of each.

Once it was determined the 'radius edge' outperformed the 'sharp edge' then Sam further refined Michael's test samples by generating multiple test bullets having steeper or shallower nose cones to identify the optimum range of 'radius nose' meplat size to produce maximum stable straight line penetration.

End result of all of Sam's bullet manufacture and Michael's test work was the BBW#13 nose profile...

Then the march began to identify the optimum number of driving bands for reduction of pressure while assuring full bullet stability (and a sufficient number of bands for case neck tension).

Oops, almost forgot. All of Sam and Michael's initial testing was with 'sharp edge' meplats of different sizes to determine the 'optimum range' of meplat size for maximum depth of straight line penetration. THEN the 'radius edge' meplat was tested against the 'sharp edge' meplat.

Cappy

All of the above sounds about right as to the development and test work....... Good job, better than I
can recall some of these events over the last few years......

M

quote:

The 'radius edge' bullet was the 'sharp edge' bullet with the sharp edge radiused, no other change to the bullet, so there was a slight difference to the actual flat meplat of each.

That adds some complication and, here I go thinking again.

If the nose cone length and angle remains identical from bullet to bullet but the corner between the meplat is made sharper, the meplat size must change. If the corner becomes sharper, the meplat becomes bigger and that reduces penetration. Makes sense. Thanks.

folks with computers and gadgets and the ability to baffle'em with BS have been trying to make the 45-70 a better DGR than the 458 Win and its ilk for ions now...
It just ain't gonna happen with thinking people..The 458 Win and the 416 and 404 will always be much much more effective and better performers than the 45-70 like it or not. Just common since should be enough to figure that out.