Ok, I think it was Wikipedia -- They said the 458 Win. Mag. recoil was 70 ft lbs. So is that per square inch? Weight of the gun would have an effect on this number.

I'm used to cranked up loads, 350 gr. in a 45/70 Govt., also 30-06 Spr. and 300 Win. Mag.

Any way we can put a number on the recoil?

The other way to do it -- figure out the muzzle energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

I'm just looking for a ballistic comparison -- 45/70 Govt. and 458 Win Mag. Mostly I wonder just how hard this big dog is gonna bite when I pull the trigger.

Here, you can calculate it yourself.

http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

Energy, recoil or otherwise, is just ft-lb. No seconds or square inches or fortnights!

The recoil calculator is PERFECT! Allows me to look at some comparisons with the same weight gun!

I found some nice muzzle energy links:

http://www.cpcartridge.com/458win-B.htm

http://www.cpcartridge.com/45-70marlin-B.htm

Unfortunately this site doesn't readily list data. I'm finding the links through Google. You know Google . . .

"Those of you who think you know it all really piss off those of us who know Google."

Quantifying recoil is difficult to do. Two guns with the same weight having the same recoil energy can have considerably different felt recoil.
I like to look at the recoil in momentum versus recoil velocity. I am more sensitive to recoil velocity than I am to recoil momentum but both can measure recoil.
The difference is that a faster recoil - even though the energy is the same as a different load in the same gun with a slower recoil - hits "harder" than the slower recoil.

Hey 45-70 try this real world recoil comparable test.

Stand in front of your Prius with 458 Win Mag painted on the door going 2 MPH and see how you feel when you get hit.

Then repeat the process with the Prius going 70 MPH.

Then repeat steps one and two with 1.5" of sorbethane glued on your kneecaps.

Remember E=1/2[M(VxV)] ?? works the same in recoil land.......it's the V that gets ya!

Recoil Calculator

When you put afed 215 primer and a max load of AAC 2230 in a 458 case and push a 500 gr Hornady in it.and stand up and shoot at a 2"diameter baloon @ 25 yards with the iron sights on your #1 you will begin to be able to quantify recoil .......Trust me ..

We were thinkin' about shooting prone on a Slip & Slide . . . see how far we back up.

I think you should do as I suggested and start with some milder loads and work up to full power loads. I would also suggest till you get accustom to the recoil shoot from a standing rest or use shooting sticks or just stand up and shoot. I would not start on the bench.
Bill

I have a remington mod 700 big game in 416rem and a 9.3mm RUM wildcat. both run about 5200 foot pounds at the muzzle and weigh about 8 lbs (which is very light). The 416 with 350grn 2650fps loads is a joy. The 9.3RUM with 250grn 3100fps loads is a wacker. Stock design, texture, weight distribution will all come into play. So you won't really know until you give it a try.

Brad

If it makes you say "Ooof!" but leaves you with a grin on your face, it's about right.

If it makes you say "UUNNNhhh...OUCH!" and you can't raise your arm to wipe your bloody nose, it's getting up there.

If it makes you grunt "Call 911!" and causes skid marks on your back, you probably should back off a couple of grains.....

...and if you can't say anything at all, it was too much.

I ran some numbers . . .

Recoil comparison calculated with 9.5 lb gun in all instances:

30-06 Spfd, 150 gr. bullet, 2932 fps -- 6 ft/lbs

45/70 Govt, 350 gr. bullet, 1874 fps -- 14 ft/lbs

.458 Win. Mag, 350 gr. bullet, 2469 fps -- 24 ft/lbs

.458 Win. Mag, 500 gr. bullet, 2156 fps -- 38 ft/lbs

.458 Win. Mag, 600 gr. bullet, 1939 fps -- 45 ft/lbs

And as noted herein: I don't have any concerns shooting the 45/70 Govt. offhand. But the bench starts to really thump on me.

I have some cross-sticks! I put them together for coyote awhile back and then moved on down the road. I'll dig them out. That's a good plan!

So I have two Ruger No. 1's -- 45/70 and this Win Mag. I view these as a modern version of the Sharps in 45/70 and 45/90.

I found some Oregon Trails "Laser Cast" hard lead, 0.459", 350 gr. We're going to experiment with these a bit in both calibers.





-- And Pill Shooter! I remember when Six Corners used to have six corners! *S* Out on 99 Dubya.

quote:

So I have two Ruger No. 1's -- 45/70 and this Win Mag. I view these as a modern version of the Sharps in 45/70 and 45/90.

More like 45/120 than 45/90. The 458 Win mag. is a (relatively) shootable gun by Dangerous Game Stopping Rifle standards. But it's still a handfull. I'm comfortable shooting My 45/70 guide gun (not ported) with a stout 350 grain load single handed. but I don't think I'd want to try that in 458 win.

Just use your noggen and don't be afraid of it but "hang on tight" and lean into it. Remember when you get above 375 H&H your moving into a different world of recoil! Just be prepared.

Oh, and the scope is bad idea at the start...

I really recommend that you ,,DO NOT SHOOT YOUR 458 FROM PRONE WITH FACTORY ,or equivalent loads ,,, slip and slide or no..............

Unless it has a muzzle brake on it ,,,,Even with the KickEeze pad ......you may get a bruised collar bone ...

45/70

I don't know whose calculator you used, but my old RCBS program calculates the recoil for a 458 at 2150fps, 500gr bullet, and 60gr powder charge at 64foot pounds. I suspect you did not add in fuel, ie, powder charge. It counts too for mass going out the barrel.

I have shot 45/70, 425 Express, 404/416 and 375HH with big bullets and stout loads, and I will tell you that my 8 pound 458 will bring tears to my eyes. It shakes me loose and my doctor recommended that I quit shooting it until I add weight to it, a brake, or something. It was causing me vision issues.

I figure that it is about 10-15 pounds more recoil than I can tolerate. Kudude

Mechanical recoil can be calculated, but often that is not how we experience the felt recoil, as it has essentially to do with stock design & stock fit. Straight stock vs one with a drop at comb & heel. Also if the stock (length of pull) is too long for you and you have to lean into it (stretching your neck) to get a full view of the scope.

Then of course there is the position of shooting that differs, for example:

1) shooting it in the prone position
2) shooting it off the bench
3) shooting in the standing position
4) or even sitting with your back against a tree

That means that either you take the full hit or that you can roll with the punch.

Warrior

quote:

often that is not how we experience the felt recoil,

But that is the vast majority of it.

A straight stock, shooting off-hand, etc., I agree will help, but is doesn't make it go away!

Everyone can say what they want about muzzle brakes but when I sit down on the ground and take a careful sight with my 416 with full house loads ,,, I know it isn,t going to rattle me ,, and 25 or 30 rounds later it still isn,t rattling me ....Any one who can truly do that with a 9 lb 416 Rem with 5 K ft lb loads is a lot better shooter than me ...Especially if they can do it 3 days in a row ...........

But for 45/70,s shooting he will do fine ....One nice thing about pain ,,, It,s a good teacher ..
Those 350 gr cast will lead like a sonofagun . if they are pushed past the 3500 ft lb range they may even then ......Gas Checked is better .. That is the nice thing about 405 gr Remington bullets they don,t lead the bore .....
Molly tumbled they don,t heat the bore up much either ...

Speaking to Danie Joubert, a gun builder in Pretoria, about his custom built 500 NE with a solid copper piece for a butt-plate, he told me that rubber pads were meant for sissies. From that day on I never complained again about my old 9,3 Husky with a hard plastic pad. Instantly it felt a lot softer. So, quite a lot of it is in the mind and getting used to it.

The Huskies are very light and the stock is so thin that most pads are wider, so I never bothered any further. When I got to building my new custom 9,3 I asked again for a nice Pachmeyer pad to be fitted .... for cosmetic reasons only.

Warrior

quote:

I don't know whose calculator you used, but my old RCBS program calculates the recoil for a 458 at 2150fps, 500gr bullet, and 60gr powder charge at 64foot pounds. I suspect you did not add in fuel, ie, powder charge. It counts too for mass going out the barrel.

I used the recoil calculator linked in this thread. I figured a 10 lb. rifle in each instance.

What powder charge did you use? Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
What powder charge did you use? Kudude

OK -- when you figure in the charge weight, the recoil calculation runs significantly higher.

I was leaving them out -- figured velocity, bullet wt. and gun wt. were the only necessary parameters.

WRONG!

77 gr. Hodgdon 4895 -- 350 gr. bullet, 2419 fps, 10 lb gun. Runs about 43 lbs, not 22.

about the same as a 375 ...... Very shootable ,,,

quote:

OK -- when you figure in the charge weight, the recoil calculation runs significantly higher.

77 gr. Hodgdon 4895 -- 350 gr. bullet, 2419 fps, 10 lb gun. Runs about 43 lbs, not 22.

OK, now I have some loads -- min. charges according to Hodgdon online, but they're compressed loads.

According to the calculations, recoil's about twice what I've been shooting in the 45/70 Govt.

I'm not exactly "afraid" to shoot it, just a bit intimidated.

Some recoil figures on my guns.

4 bore double 25.9 lbs 2000 grn bullet/1480 ft/sec = 129 ft.lbs of recoil at 17 ft/sec

700 nitro 17.1 lbs 1000grn bullet/2000 ft/sec = 121ft.lbs of recoil at 21 ft/sec


500 jeff. 7.4 lbs 570 grn bullet at 2200 ft/sec = 128 ft.lbs of recoil at 33 ft/sec OUCH !

600 overkill 10.5 lbs 900 grn. bullet at 2200 ft/sec = 206 ft.lbs at 35 ft/sec

700 ahr 11.6 lbs 1000 grn. bullet at 2000 ft/sec = 183 ft.lbs at 32 ft/sec.

These all do a pretty good job at kicking your shoulder.

quote:

These all do a pretty good job at kicking your shoulder.

That's not really what I was looking to hear.

What I need to hear is "Don't stick your face in the scope, and it won't bite you. Hold on to it, offhand and it won't get away from you."

45-70

What you say is also good advice on some of these loads. Its all what you get used to shooting and what you are ready for when you pull the trigger. Big bore recoil, hell its all good!

45/70

I know what you mean, but the recoil on a full house 458 load in a light rifle is a load. You definitely don't want to be using a scope without plenty of eye relief.

When it comes to the physics of shooting, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Kudude

Hey Warrior

quote:

he told me that rubber pads were meant for sissies.

Ask him if he also uses his welding equipment without a welding helmet or his grinders without eye protection. I bet he goes to the shooting range without earmuffs. He probably also drives without using a seat belt and hunts in the middle of winter without wearing shoes.

quote:

So, quite a lot of it is in the mind

Especially yours hey?

Hey Rat Motor,
Good work picking on Warrior/Chris Bekker. He deserves it.

Unfortunately, your buddy and mine, Gerard, deserves some ass kicking too.

Ask Gerard why he takes money from customers and does not deliver his product, for years on end.
What is the excuse this time?

RIP,

You are so original, save for throwing a dagger at your buddy.
I would have expected you to be much more gentle or subtle with your buddies.
Like doing it in private with a private message or by e-mail.



Bet you do not even know the stature of Danie Joubert and his fame in the SA gun insustry.
Gosh, if you were only half the man Danie is, you would be quite a man.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
If it makes you say "Ooof!" but leaves you with a grin on your face, it's about right.

If it makes you say "UUNNNhhh...OUCH!" and you can't raise your arm to wipe your bloody nose, it's getting up there.

If it makes you grunt "Call 911!" and causes skid marks on your back, you probably should back off a couple of grains.....

...and if you can't say anything at all, it was too much.

Thats about the way I do it.

45-70,
I ran some numbers on my Pact chronograph for free recoil and found some difference in figures from what you got.
“458 Win. Mag, 500 gr. bullet, 2156 fps -- 38 ft/lbsâ€
I got 65.98 ft/lbsâ€
For the 350 gr load I got 37 Ft/lbsâ€
Like I have said start with the lower loads and work up as you get accustom to how it feels. I would use a Past recoil shield to help get use to how it feels and protect your shoulder.
Bill

I shot some 350 gr. loads, 77 gr. of H 4895.

Removed the scope. That's the issue that concerned me, being "bit" in the face.

Gun is 9.5 lbs -- Velocity runs about 2215 fps.

Calc I get is 38 ft/lbs, recoil velocity 16 fps.

I was pleasantly surprised to find the recoil not at all "punishing." Offhand, it's only a bit more "thumpinating" than a light 12 gauge.

Recoil has never bothered me. What I worry about is being smacked by the scope, or having the gun get out of my hands. I have big hands and strong grip.

Next run is 400 gr. bullets, 73 gr. H 4895. That moves the recoil calc. up to about 41 ft/lbs. Same 16 fps recoil velocity.

500 gr. bullets start moving toward 50 ft/lbs.

I can manage that.

Here's the bullet and the ditch it dug. Bullet was about 9" past the end of the ditch.

I'm addicted --

Wait till you see the "ditch" with the 400's amd 500's. The dirt realey flyes....
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 Govt.:
I shot some 350 gr. loads, 77 gr. of H 4895.

Removed the scope. That's the issue that concerned me, being "bit" in the face.

Gun is 9.5 lbs -- Velocity runs about 2215 fps.

Calc I get is 38 ft/lbs, recoil velocity 16 fps.

I was pleasantly surprised to find the recoil not at all "punishing." Offhand, it's only a bit more "thumpinating" than a light 12 gauge.

Recoil has never bothered me. What I worry about is being smacked by the scope, or having the gun get out of my hands. I have big hands and strong grip.

Next run is 400 gr. bullets, 73 gr. H 4895. That moves the recoil calc. up to about 41 ft/lbs. Same 16 fps recoil velocity.

500 gr. bullets start moving toward 50 ft/lbs.

I can manage that.

Here's the bullet and the ditch it dug. Bullet was about 9" past the end of the ditch.

I'm addicted --

NICE !!!