Started loading a new batch of Hornady 416 Rigbys.But when I tried seating the bullets(Barnes 400 TSX) the shoulders are collapsing. Like pushing the neck down into the case. Didn't happen yesterday with my old Hornady cases that have been fired 4 times. Bullets are not oversized, same dies and adjustments as yesterday, even tried some Hornady round nose bullets, same deal. I didn't full length size them but I did run the expander ball through the neck. I've got six boxes of these all from the same lot, tried some from a second box, did the same thing. Any ideas?

quote:

Originally posted by wanna577:
Started loading a new batch of Hornady 416 Rigbys.But when I tried seating the bullets(Barnes 400 TSX) the shoulders are collapsing. Like pushing the neck down into the case. Didn't happen yesterday with my old Hornady cases that have been fired 4 times. Bullets are not oversized, same dies and adjustments as yesterday, even tried some Hornady round nose bullets, same deal. I didn't full length size them but I did run the expander ball through the neck. I've got six boxes of these all from the same lot, tried some from a second box, did the same thing. Any ideas?

It sounds like the neck of the case is too long.
Check case length. It may be hitting the crimp when it shouldn't be doing so.

I double checked to make sure, case is not contacting the crimp shoulder. Should have stated so in my original post. Thanks for the suggestion though.

The .416 Rigby shoulder angle is right at 45-degrees.
Any greater and it would tend to collapse/telescope everytime.

This is the only flaw of the .416 Rigby cartridge design.
It is always flirting with such collapse.

Maybe Hornady got the latest batch a little too soft in the neck and shoulder area, or they formed it 1/2 of a degree greater than 45 degrees.

Try lubing the inside of the necks for the first seating of bullet, and fireforming.

That will blow the shoulder out to no more than 45-degrees, and start to work harden the shoulder so it will not misbehave next time, maybe?

Can you see an annealing color change limited only to the shoulder and neck area?

Only shootaway anneals the heads of his cases.

The original .416 Ruger was a .416 Rigby with a 30-degree shoulder instead of a 45-degree shoulder.
They made up a Ruger No.1 so chambered and gave it to Bill Ruger on his birthday ... was that back in 1992?

I would go a step farther and make the shoulder 20 degrees.
This increases the case capacity and slicks up the feeding even more.

The .416 Rigby has about the most case taper and the sharpest shoulder of any factory cartridge,
just the opposite of the .404 Jeffery,
which has about the least case taper AND smallest shoulder angle.

JackPhantomHuckleberryHoundDog, RIP.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Maybe Hornady got the latest batch a little too soft in the neck and shoulder area, or they formed it 1/2 of a degree greater than 45 degrees.

Try lubing the inside of the necks for the first seating of bullet, and fireforming.

That will blow the shoulder out to no more than 45-degrees, and start to work harden the shoulder so it will not misbehave next time, maybe?

JackPhantomHuckleberryHoundDog, RIP.

One other easy suggestion is to give a heavy chamfer inside the neck. Lube the inside the neck well as RIP suggests and try seating some bullets.
If this works, then after the first shots the cases should be good to go next time you reload them.

Good luck,
Paul

Yep,
That "heavier than usual" inside chamfer ought to help too.
Might be just enough stress relief to prevent the collapse.
JackPhantomHuckleberryHoundDog, RIP.

I live in Grand Island and have friends that work for Hornady. I talked to one of my friends yesterday who is a tool and die guy out there. Mostly, he builds reloading equipment and custom dies. Hornady has grown to over 300 employees and they are working a regular 60 hour work week and could work more if they wanted to keep up with the demand. At this pace, I would not at all be surprised if a bad lot of brass got out.

Management at Hornady used to tell their employees to "save your money" because someday this will be over and they would be back to regular hours. There used to be a fear that because of the excessive demand, there would be a corresponding collapse. However, the demand for reloading components and equipment just seems to roll on. I probably have about 3000 large rifle magnum primers but I confess, I am always on the hunt for some. I usually don't buy 4-5000 at a time but just pick up 1000 when I can. My local guys can't seem to find Hodgdon Varget. That's okay for me because I have plenty of Reloder 15 and a very good stockpile of Ramshot Big Game which I really like but the guys around here looking for Varget are having lots of trouble finding it.

What do you think? How long is this going to go on and will we ever get back to some semblance of "normal". I would have thought this would have been over by now.

I had the same problem when I started loading Barnes Banded Solids in 416 Rigby. That bullet has a more or less right angle base, with no radius at all. Consider it the opposite of a boat tail.
I solved the problem by getting a belling die from RCBS, and expanding the case mouth ever so slightly. You don't want to over do it, as it will work the brass quite a lot, and cause other problems later.

Heavy chamfer and mostly some lube in the neck will solve the problem. It isn't a Hornady brass problem, Norma brass will do the same thing if you are not careful, I think you need to be a little more precise with starting the bullet straight as well. I have only lost a couple, but it's pretty expensive brass.

I agree with jstevens, I just got a new batch of Hornady .416 Rigby brass and I put a heavy chamfer on the inside of the case mouth as well as touch the case mouth to a tin of Imperial sizing die wax prior to seating the bullet and have not ruined any as of yet...I am loading Barnes X and Hornady IB bullets.

The annealing looks normal to me.I guess I'll try a little lube on em and see how it goes. Hornady one shot lube ok or should I get some Imperial sizing wax? Just seems funny I've never had Hornadys do this before now. Sure appreciate all the suggestions guys. Thanks.

Any 416 Rigby case will collapse under the right (wrong?) circumstances.

1. Have buffalo bore in Northern Idaho make you a custom tapered "M" die (i.e. a modified Lyman M die). Specify a taper from .414" up to .418".
2. Do not use the crimp function of your seating die ever (Not now, not then, not ever, never)
3. Get some moly dry neck lubricant from NECO. Sinclair carries a similar product. Lube the inside of the neck well.
4. Run the case onto the custom mandrel enough that the bullet fits in the very front of the neck and stands straight up on its own.
5. Slowly run case and bullet into your seater die. Stop when you get where you are going.
6. Use a Factory Crimp Die from Lee (special order - $75.00). Crimp into a cannelure or a groove. That should work very well. If not , send me a PM.
7. That sharp shoulder is a PIA. Damn nice cartridge for every use under the sun.

I had quite a few of those when I was loading 416 Rigby. Sometimes the bullet and the neck fell into the case. Carefully reaming the neck solved the problem for me.

A slight opening of the case mouth as used by cast lead bullet shooters should solve the problem or use a tapered/stepped expander button to first open up the case mouth a bit.

Any competent machinist can make/grind/polish you up a specific expander button...tapered or stepped...if you can't find one...even a hack like me made a tapered one for my 50 cal using Hornady 416 Rigby cases for use with the case lead bullets I plan on shooting for the most part...if I can do it, a REAL machinist won't have much trouble.

If not CH4D can you up. They have a "M" type tapered expander plug for about 15 bucks or custom expander balls for a couple bucks less...Or as Lawndart said Buffalo Bore can fix you up.

You might have to dig around a bit to find a cheap and readily available alternative, but there are several ways to get there.

Get a "M" die from RCBS.....I was having the same problem (collapsing the shoulder) when loading Northfork bullets in my 416 Rigby. This die allows you to put a slight bell in the case mouth. It is adjustable, so you can decide how much bell you want/need to allow the bullets to seat smoothly without catching on the case mouth.

They are cheap and solved my problem.

All sage advice (even mine, for a change).

I purchased a custom tapered "M" die from Buffalo Bore for cast bullet use, and it solved most of my copper bullet woes.

The Lee Factory Crimp die is really the cat's ass for this cartridge!

Drop a few shekels now, you will be very happy for a long time.

I just use a Lee case expanding/flare die. Its been a handy addition in a number of cartridges.
Cheers...
Con

Ok, I made a .4155 expander ball and lube the necks with Imperial wax. Seating feels pretty much normal,not hard but not sloppy either. After seating the Barnes 400 gr tsx, I lightly crimp with a custom Lee factory crimp die ,which I always use on my Rigby. No collapsed shoulders! The bad news is these loads shot about 16 inches lower than my regular(non oversize expander/wax)loads at 200 yds off the sticks. Guess I'll be using the first loading as short range offhand practice. Now I need to reload them normally and see if they are good to go after being fired once. Hornady supposed to be calling me tomorrow too. Figured it can't hurt to bring it to their attention.
Once again thanks for all the advice guys, you seem to have me on the right track.

The Rigby case is a bitch to reload. Gotta treat 'em like ladies - then fill 'em up with 5,000 ft.-lbs. of muzzle energy!