what are peoples experiences with these two and which did they find was better, what where the starting loads ??

Had this in reloading but there only interested in migit rifles there

RE-15 seems like it might be best according to Saeeds pages but I want to be gentle on my old 1909 !!

RIP & RAY do you two have anything to add here

PC,

I had a 416 Remington which is a slightly smaller case and bore and 2400 was easy pressure with both Re 15 and 2208.

So 2350 in the 404 will be low pressure. But based on the 375 you will get the 2350 with a bit less pressure with Re 15.

If want the lowest peak pressure for 2350 then start with 2209 which I reckon will be a compressed load or close to it.

In short, the slowest powder to get the 2350 will give the lowest peak pressure but the powder charge will be bigger.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

I see that starting loads with re15 give practically what I am chasing.

In that big case I have a preference for IMR-4831 and I can get more velocity at less pressure than RL-15..I use 90 to 95 grs. in all my 404s, Northfork has tested these loads for pressure and velocity, he got about 2500 with the top load, I got about 2653 in the 27 inch barrel I had...My hunting load is 93 grs. with any 400 gr. bullet. for a tad over 2400. I have used this load for 20 years, see no reason to change...I like a full but not compacted powder in any case and IMR does this..Some have reported not being able to get more than 93 grs in a 404 case, I have not had any trouble getting 95 grs. in any of my 404s..but recoil is gruesome so I shoot the 93 gr. load...I tried the RL-15 loads and was not satisfied with them, they are not as accurate in my guns and velocity is down a bit...

Hey PC, I'm one of those guys that just can't fit more than 91-92gr of imr4831 under a 400gr bullet (I don't know where Ray gets that special brass ). I use 84gr for just under 2200fps from my 23" PacNor bbl. I tried 75gr RL15 for 2250fps, accuray was quite good, right around 1moa. I haven't tried Varget yet, but I did give VV150 a spin. The same 75gr charge gives about 2225fps. RL19 also works well under the 400gr bullets, 85gr will give you about 2200fps. Accuracy w/ all of the powders is better than 1.5moa using Woodleigh & NorthFork softs & Barnes mono solids. Several combos went into less than 1moa & that's w/ the tiny 1.5x5 VXIII.

Thanks Fred & Ray,

RE-15 is pretty dear in Oz, like twice the price so I am wondering if it's worth it, we can get Varget (ar2208) here in spades at reasonable prices. Win 748 also seems to make the .404 sing with the 85 gr starting load giving 2450 fps (N.Harvey Reloading Manual).

Saeeeds website shows good results with 77 gr of RE-15.

I don't know maybe Varget is the go !!

PC,

Who has the Reloader powder...that crowd in Perth

Mike

Mike I have a can set aside at my local gunshop in Ballarat.

thats the issue however when you run out and it's hard to get your then developing loads for locally available powder

PC,

Based on te 416 Rem the oter powder you might find good is 2206 loaded to around 2200. I good very good results with 2206 and that was low pressure.

Mike

Fred,
I suspect based on your chamber, or brass, whatever the reason you have less case capacity than I ( I shoot RWS and Norma), that you will get the same velocity as I do, but with less powder, and thats a plus I suppose...If you ever chronograph that rifle with IMR-4831, I would like to know what velocities you get with your lighter loads.....

You do shoot for less velocity than I in the .404, I want a full 2400 FPS, as it will simply kill a bit better in my experience, not to say that 2200 isn't enough and so is 2100 FPS, and I have used the 2100 FPS loads on more than a couple of ocassions..Thus my attraction to my light 10.75x68, its my 404 short!

Hey Ray, I posted the crono vel. in the original reply, just under 2200fps w/ 400gr & a bit over 2200fps w/ Mike's 380gr. For me it's enough, everything I shot last year in Moz. & RSA went down to one shot including my smallish buffalo, I was impressed. Istill have most of my brain cells so I can live w/ 2200-2250fps from a 400gr.
I went out & tried filling some cases tonight & 93gr comes half way up the neck from a long drop tube. No way I am getting that lovely, long 380gr NF onto that, needless to say the 400gr Barnes is a no. That's ok though, I can probably get to 2400fps w/ 89-90gr & that just might fit in there. I haven't shot her since I got back last Oct. Time to dust her off I see what's what. Sure wish I had some of Mike's 340gr.

Fred, I think you will find that you will not tell a hill of beans difference in the 340's and the 380's. I got the last of the 340's and I really can't tell much of a difference. It will be a while before Mike makes another batch of the 340s anyway. Accuracy was maybe a bit better in my rifle with the 380's. It may be best to just use one load for everything, heavy and light game. I say that but I leave soon to hunt plains game with Mikes 325gr 416 bullets. I loaded them up really warm (nearly 3000 fps in a Rigby) but accuracy and recoil was not lovely. Loaded to 2600 it is a 375 H&H clone. Low recoil and very accurate. Good hunting

PC,
I've been away for a few days, just got back.

I can speak from the perspective of McGowen 10" twist rifle barrels of .423 groove, a 24" stainless (M-70 Classic African Sheep Rifle) and a 25" chrome-moly on the CZ Safari Classic. Both are McGowen barrels.

The McGowen barrels have faster twists and narrower lands. I think they give lower pressures than the Lothar Walther barrels of 14" twist and wider lands. Twist effects on pressure are minimal. Barrel friction from greater bearing surfaces is more important.

There is not much difference. The big difference comes in drop tubes and compressed powder, I reckon. I do not go for this, just don't like to mess with it.

RL-15 and Varget are very close. Pick one. Varget Extreme is just a wee bit slower, so adding one more grain of Varget to the RL-15 charge will get you even on these two.

I've got some grerat RL-15 loads for other rifles, and will never give it up in those, but I prefer Varget Extreme in the .404 Jeffery.

Saeed's data also showed better accuracy and velocity with Varget than with RL-15, in the .404 Jeffery. If that Prince of a Fellow ever gets around to posting all his data, you will see. H4350 may be better yet.

And then there is H4831SC, always a winner.

My three picks for the .404 Jeffery are all from Australia, via Hodgdon to USA.

Here is a guide to getting started with whatever .404 barrel you have. Assume 24"barrel, Norma brass, F215 or GM215M primer, and the baseline bullet: 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP.

Starting load to lowball max load for reasonable velocity:

RL-15
71 grains: 2125 fps: antique load
80 grains: 2400 fps

Varget Extreme
72 grains: 2125 fps: antique load
81 grains: 2400 fps (95% density load--excellent load)
85 grains: 100% density: caution

H4350 Extreme
85 grains: 2275 fps
87 grains: 2325 fps (100% density load, equals the RWS factory load of late, excellent load, low pressure)

H4831SC Extreme
88 grains: 2200 fps (100% density load--excellent, very low pressure)

In my McGowen barrels, the 340 grain North Fork is slightly more accurate than the 380 grain so far.
I use 87.6 grains of Varget and get 2700 fps:
3-shots into 0.557" at 100 yards
3-shots into 2.126" at 300 yards

Different barrels like different bullets. The 380 grain Northfork at 2525 fps using 83 grains of Varget has delivered 0.856" for 3-shot group at 100 yards.

Hey, you could drop the antique powder charge another grain or two and use Dacron/polyester filler if you want low recoil and a snow storm.
All the other "excellent" loads are gentle enough and no snowstorm.

Thanks DH, I will eventually get a few boxes from Mike & my thought is to use them as plainsgame bullets. They should shoot a wee bit flatter @ 2500fps w/o beating the snot out of me. The 380gr @ 2250fps work great, they'll shoot into just over 2" out @ 200yds, but I like the idea of having a flatter shooting, lighter recoiling round for after the buffalo is down. It would be even better if they printed 1-1.5" higher than my 380gr loads.
RIP, I think you may be onto something w/ H4350, especially if you wanted yo use one powder for both bullets.

Fred,
My African Sheep Rifle (M70/McGowen 24") does this: The 340 grain North Fork at 2700 fps shoots to the same POI at 100 yards as the 380 grain North Fork at 2525 fps. Both print 3" high at 100 yards currently, with no change in scope adjustment.

I need to slow the 380 grainer down to 2200 to 2300 fps and see if it will get closer to zero at 100 yards. That would be good. However, the Sheep Rifle is dedicated to the 340 grainers, primarily. It is about 7" low at 300 yards, so zeroed.

The CZ 550 in .404 Jeffery (McGowen 25") is zeroed at 100 yards with 400 grain Woodleighs at 2200 fps, with the iron sights from the factory requiring only a small windage drift adjustment to do this.

I will have to try for a 2300 to 2400 fps load with H4350 and the North Fork 380 grainers for the primary load with this second rifle and see where the iron sights hit.

Maybe 87 grains of H4350 with the 380 grainer and 90 grains of H4350 with the 340 grainer would be interesting.

Another reloading project for my list ...

Thanks RIP and others,
I have a Lothar .423 barrel and it has been lopped to 23 1/2" to match the barrel length of my 9.3x62 as I feel these two calibres mate nicely

I think I will stick to AR2208 for $$ reasons (thats your Varget) all I want is 2250-2300 fps and know pressure with the 400 gr woodleigh.

I see on another thread some people are sizing down .44 mag bullets. sizing down that 300 gr XTP hollow point would make a great varmint load !!

PC,
Your Lothar Walther barrel may give you higher velocities than I get with my McGowen "micro-land" rifling.

I have an idea for the minimum-recoil-maximum-accuracy-sure-killer-low-pressure
load:

72 grains of Varget/AR2208
3 grains of polyester pillow stuffing filler on top of the powder charge
F215 or GM215M primer
Norma brass
Woodleigh 400 grain RNSP

85 grains of Varget fills the case 100%, so 72 grains will be an 85% load, or 15% airspace, using the Norma brass and the Woodleigh 400 grain Weldcore RNSP. That is a fact.

You might as well load up 5 of these right now and get ready to chronograph. Next time I load for my CZ550 .404 Jeffery I will do the same. Maybe we can compare notes. My 25" McGowen vs. your 23.5" LW. This will help to advance the science of the .404 Jeffery.

That ought to be about a 40,000 psi load and close to 2200 fps in a Lothar Walther 23-1/2" barrel, by my SWAG.

Minor adjustments in powder charge and filler weight may be required, as your mileage may vary.

[RIP,

I am yet to purcase a chronograph, the blissful ignorance I currently live in is very appealing you know !!