I have a 375 H&H and was planning to get a 404 build next year some time but now I'm thinking of actualy going a bit bigger for a backup gun on big game.

What are your'e ideas on this and does soemone have a sheet to compare the 404 to the 500 Jeff I know the 500 Jeff is much bigger but what will the recoil be like something that can be handled or something a bit too heavy ? Or the third option should I just opt for the cheap option and go for the 458 Lott ?

the lott is generally on a lighter gun, and with PUBLISHED 500 @2300, it's going to be a pretty quick recoil

the jeffery is 535 at 2400 (right.. try 2300), but should be on a 1 to 1.# heavier gun...

at 11#, gross weight, the jeffery would have better frontal x-section, and the lott would have better penetration..

BUT

the lott is DONE at 500@2300 and the jeffery is just starting.. a 600 at 2200 or a 570 Xbullet at 2250 is JUST what the doctor ordered.

brass is way way cheaper for the lott, as well as dies

jeffe

I would have to think that the 500 Jeffery would kick considerably more than the 458 Lott. That assumes both rifles weigh 9-10 pounds.

Jeffeosso, from your post I take it you have discovered that the 2400 fps, 535 grain "factory" load is hype. I have no experience with the Jeffery, but assumed that the "factory" load would be a low pressure load. I thought this because my 500 A2 can easily achieve 2400 fps with the 535g bullets. Getting to 2400 fps with a 570g load is a bit more difficult in the 500 A2.

Lucs

I've never shot a 404, only thing close would be 350 gr @ 2500 fps from a 458 lott. The 500 Jeffrey will have roughly double the recoil of the 404. The advantage of the 404 is you can build it in a relatively light rifle, and it will be pleasant to shoot. A 500 Jeffrey in a gun weighing under 10 pounds will be unpleasant the shoot unless it has a muzzlebrake fit.

The 458 Lott I had was in the same stock that my 500 Jeffrey is temporarily in. The Lott was some 2#'s lighter then the Jeffrey. What I found is that the lighter lott had a much sharper recoil then the 500, though the 500 moved me back much further in recoil.

Lucs,
this could be an interesting convo, especially between the a2 and the jeffe...

I think that the factory load is more in the area of 2300-2350, in most guns with a normal length barrel, at the jeffery pressure. certainly the a2, with higher pressure, will exceed it. the jeffe runs at 46k, while the a2 is at nearly 64k... so this would be like comparing the 300 savage and 308.. load them to the same pressure, they are the same gun, in the field.

but, if you take a lott (500 at 2300) or a 500 jeff or a2, and load them to 2300, the recoil, in the same weight gun, will be just about the same. BUT, the lott will have a higher pressure, and, imho, a FASTER recoil...

if I had to choose, and then build, I would build a jeffe/a2 in an 11# gun, or a lott in a 9.5 to 10#, in relation to barrel weight alone, assuming the same wall thickness, not barrel diameter. if you did either in, say, a #6, the 458 would weigh more... but that's why you would do the lott in a #5 contour.

My jeffery is built on a #6, which is barely, in my mind, enough barrel weight... but, when compared to rechambering a 9.2# cz to 458 lott, it's GREAT... i have a cz barrel sitting right here (can't decide if it's going to be a 450 marlin or 458 winni on a light rifle)

jsut my thoughts, that the lott would be in a smaller, lighter gun than the 500..

cheers
jeffe

I would go with the lott. There are few gunsmiths who know how to do a 500 jeffery well. And the lott has an ammo availability advantage over the jeffery.

Frederick,

The .458 Lott has emerged as the definitive stopping rifle cartridge for the PH. I expect it is very much more available locally for you in "Gangster Province" (do they still call it that? ) than the .404 or the .500.

Secondly it makes up into a much more portable rifle than the .500.

And besides I chose it, so it must be right!

jim dodd

Go with the Lott. My own expeience is that rebatted cartridges are very tough to get reliable feeding and extraction from and as 500 grs said the gunsmiths who actually have experience with 500 Jefferies and 404's are extremely limited. The horror stories are published here way too often. The Lott is a snap on most 375's and your more likely to come out of it with a properly functioning gun. -Rob

SH,as you know I haven't been yet but buy all the other posting it seems you would be better off with the Lott,I'm sure Ray will post as he gets time,but as you are in SA why not look into the 458x3" that Ray has talked about, Alan at AH, mag has an article on it and it appears was dreamed up right there in your back yard.Just my two cents

/

Lucs
Westley Richards sells loaded 500 jeffery, list at 2300 with the 535 gr., jsut as a follow-on to my comment about factory velocity. I feel that if I hit 2300 with my 22" barrel, then that's all I am going to do with it.
http://westleyrichards.com/ammo.asp?Type=Rifle&ID=200112615301731
jeffe

After having used the 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs and 404 Jefferys on game, I settled on the 404 and I feel the 400 gr. .423 bullet at 2400 FPS (also 416 Rem/Rigby) is all I will ever need...and I don't have to pack all that extra weight and get pounded to death....

The only exception would be if I was going to shoot a elephant in the shoulder then I might opt for a 505 or 458 Lott, but I wouldn't be too disturbed to use a 40 caliber....

I can see little difference in the reaction of Buffalo shot with any of them..

Jeffeosso, thanks for the information on the 500 J. Like I stated before, I have no experience with the 500 J only with the 500 A2. I thought I detected in your original post some sarcasism at the "published" factory ballistics of 2400 fps with the 535 g bullet. I say "pubilshed" because this is the velocity I recall always seeing in books.

FWIW, it is no trivial thing to get a 535 g bullet to 2400 fps with the 500 A2. Have you used your 500 J on game yet?

Lucs

Thanx all for the responce.

It seems that the Lott is the favorite. But what is the diference between the Lott and the 3" ???

Wouldn't it make more sense to get the Lott as cases are easily available ? Tell me more about the 3".

Ray, if then you are so happy with the 404 I will get it one day as a hunting piece and not for backup

/

Alf,

The SOMCHEM powders have known performance problems with serveral common hunting calibers. This begs the question of why North American or European powders are not loaded in RSA?

What is the deal with that?

thanks...jim dodd

Safari-Hunt,
I think your suffering the cozy gun syndrome!!

A 458 Lott or 505 does make one fell safer, but that's all a mind game...A nice little 416 or 404 with a "solid" to the "brain" is a back up gun, you know that!...Are you sure "want" hasn't poisoned your soul!!

/

The foregoing very knowledgeable comments are concentrating on the Big Bore itself but if we step back and look at the entirety of your question things change just a bit.

You curently have a .375. Wonderful, old boy, one planet-one rifle sortofthing, don'tcherknow. That is likely to be your main hunting rifle. You will shoot everything with it . . . until something goes wrong! Then you reach for the Heavy. I shoot a .450 Rigby that easily delivers 500@2300. It weighs 10.25 lbs. empty and I wouldn't want it an ounce less than that! 6000 ft. lbs. is a bit of a handful but when your pucker factor is sky high, the ability to knock things DOWN is very comforting. If you load a .500 anything down to Gibbs levels, you still get great frontal area and massive stopping capability with gross recoil about the same as my Rigby!

The question is how to feed the beast. RSA being what it is, the Lott or the .458/3" is far mor practical and that's what a working hunter needs. Save the Dream Guns for the well-fed pukka sahibs, man, and just get a Lott.

Alf,

Thanks for the fill-in; I didn't know if it was an import tariff problem or just what. All of the powders have gained a lot in price here in the US since I was first reloading, probably far more than just inflation would add.

I wasn't thinking so much of Norma powders, but the other European powders(VV, etc.) -- or even the Australian.

jim

Mr Atkinson,

Want hasn't poisoned my sould no it is just that the 458 lott or 3" would be much cheaper and easier to get hold of here in RSA I still have time to wrestle with myself but I know if I can get a good deal on either a 404 or a 416 I would rather go for them than the 458. So let me see how things work out.

About I buy you a beer next year at the Dallas show and lets talk over it IT looks like things are going to work out and I will end up at the show.

Fredrik,
If you can get up to me at White River you would be very welcome to play with my .500 Jeffrey for an hour or two, and we can always have a beer or two (& talk sh*t) together afterwards.

The rifle was made for me by Fanie Combrink at Sabi Rifles in Nelspruit and he did a great job at a reasonable price.

Cheers