Is it improbable, impossible, or just impractical to chamber a double rifle in 460 Weatherby, 450 Rigby, or a 458 Lott? The components would certainly be gads cheaper and the thumping ability would be impressive.

I'm not a double expert but I think the rimmed cartridges make for more reliable extraction. The cartridges you've listed would also have to be down loaded to standard double working pressures which negates the advantage. So the only real thing you would be saving on would be brass with the mentioned calibers. Once you put out the money for brass for a double with the low pressures it should last you a life time.
470 Mbogo

Thats kind of like worrying about the price of premium for your 911 Carrera.

Kevin,

No need for you to worry about how much money I spend or don't spend. I don't.

470,

My intial thought was the rimmed part being important for extraction. You confirmed that. What I'm not versed on is why the reduced loads for doubles. Is it because the actions are not as strong as bolt actions?

That's correct. Most of the double rifle cartridges run in the 39,000 to 44,000 psi range where the bolt rifles run in the 60,000 to 65,000 psi range. This is the reason so many of the double rifle cartridges are based on very large brass and the velocities are in the 2150 fps range. Krieghoff brought out 500/416 to drive a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps to match the Rigby ballistics at a working pressure of 40,900 psi. Actually the cartridge started out as the 416 Chapuis designed by A-Square. This is why the cartridge is so long with an OAL of 4.1 inches. The modern cartridges with their working pressures would stress the action of a double making it go off the face in short order.
Take care,
470 Mbogo

I heard about idea of "double rifle falling block action", also seen incredible double rifle repeater, so there is a place for .460Wby magnum, I belive it is not so imposible to make double from two Ruger #1 in .460 Wby for example

Jiri

If I was paying $8000+ for a double, I'd want a rimmed cartridge.

Rimless and belted cases might work just as reliably as a rimmed case, but the notion that they won't is common enough to detract from the rifle's cachet.

Rimless chambering isn't like mounting a scope or using a synthetic thumhole stock on a double (not that there's anything wrong with that), but it's kind of like paying Redding prices for Lee reloading equipment.

Richard Lee spends lots of money advertising that reloading equipment does not need to be especially strong. In a famous example, he showed that he can machine down the frame of his press to 1/8" diameter pegs and still full-length resize rifle cases.

Lee's experiments may be valid, but I can't hold in my head the two thoughts:

"Why pay a little more for reliability I might not need?"

and

"That's a real pretty rifle mister. Here's $10,000."

That's my $0.02. That and $2.98 might buy you a piece of 470 NE brass.

H. C.

Keep in mind that H&H and Westley Richards, to name
2, have been making and selling doubles chambered
for .375 belted mag., and .458 for years. The
little extractor paws look real flimsey. Each
year at SCI, I ask them about reliability, and they
say rimless or rimmed-no difference. Remembering
who they are, and that someone buys .375 and .458,
they couldn't be all bad. BTW, those are full loads, and full pressure. All I'm saying is its
not black and white.

there's been a couple tries at this... merkel comes to mind, in that they made, for awhile, a 416 rigby... that shoots off face.

IMHO, a rimmed cart COULD extract (excrete?) off the rim, but would have to be loaded to 40k, max... so, if you wanted a 450 NE in a rimmed, you could make it a loaded down 460 woundabeast. I would make it a .05 SHORTER "wildcat" to prevent 65k going off in a 40k chamber.

worth it? only if you expected to have a bolt gun in the same caliber

practical? NOPE... it would be FAR easier to find 450, 470, 500 ne in africa

just my 2�
jeffe

577,

I was aware of the belted chamberings and felt that it kind of muddied up the conventional thought. There are also smaller calibers that they chamber that are not rimmed. I wasn't sure of the reliability of the extraction. H&H and Westley Richards seem to think it makes no difference.

My perferred chambering would be the 458 Lott if I thought it was possible. If I thought I was buying a rifle for resale value, then I would just be fooling myself. Anything of collectors value is something that I'm not going to hunt with. Some collect, some hunt, some do both. I just hunt.

Jeff,

You and the others have basically answered the question that the doubles just are not up to the higher pressures. I'll just stick to my bolt offerings or settle on 470 double.

Getting a double in a rimless cartridge is just as foolis as getting a bolt gun in a rimmed cartridge.

Double don't last long when fed high pressure ammo either.

Then you would use a long cartridge like mine that gets the 2400fps with 500 gr at 38-40,000
psi, for your double.Ed .

There have been a number of double rifles built in 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 458 Win..the problem is twofold, they didn't stand up well and shot off the face plenty fast..Secondly, a rimless belted or just rimless case has a cute tendency to let the extractor or ejector, whichever the case may be jump/override the rimless rim and then your up the perverbial fecal creek, and being well aquainted with Mr. Murphy I know it would happen to me just as old M'Bogo or brother Simba was about to give me a juicy kiss.....

I do believe the newer 500/416 to be the ultimate double gun, IF it holds up to the pounding and I think it will, but I shall let the less initiated decide that for me. In the meantime I shall be happy with my present double.

All the name calling, and opinions to the contrary, the double rifle action is not suited to high pressure chamberings. If anyone thinks H&H, or WR are going to tell you the rifles they chamber for 375 H&H, and 458 Win Mag will go off face thousands of rounds before, say a 450NE 3.25" you are sadly mistakened. To top this off the the 450NE will work better on game than any of the big fast 458 cartridges. The only reason they make those chamberings, in doubles, is, because people who don't know better demand it, no other reason. This chambering of these rounds came about because the classic rounds were getting very hard to come by back in the late fifties. Adtionally, most of the 458 win mag doubles have been re-chambered to 450#2 Nitro, and re-regulated, for a more sensable cartridge, rifle combination.

The reason the double rifle manufacturers do not make doubles in 460 WBy Mag, is because of the above limitations of the technology of the double's action, and for the same reason nobody other than Weatherby chambers it. That reason is, it is a cartridge that will do nothing better than a 1890 ventage 450NE 3.25",where Big animals are concerned, but burn more powder, and generate more recoil, and noise. Once a 500 gr solid passes the magic window 2150-2450 fps, it gains you nothing.

The simple solution to this controvercy is, to simply shoot what you want, but accept the fact that because you want somthing, has little to do with whether it is good or not! A S/S double rifle should be chambered for a flanged, (rimmed) cartridge, that generates 40,000 psi chamber pressure or less, and pushs it's solid or soft no faster than 2450 fps. If you want a 460 WBY MAG, then buy one, but let's leave double rifles out of that dog fight, they were not designed for that type cartridge!

I can build you a double rifle that will shoot the 460 Wby Mag, and handle the pressure, but it will not be a conventunal double rifle, and in my opinion, would be a waste of good steel! It would cost twenty times what a push feed Wby Mk-V would. I'd far rather just buy a nice field grade Searcy, Chapuis, or Merkel chambered for 470NE for under $10K that will do everything better than a 460 WBY. This is only my opinion, but it's worth every cent you will pay for it!

Jiri, that crap was in very poor taste! Tsc Tsc

There is a Ferlach .458 win mag o/u double here locally for sale used. I would say it was made in the 1960's or 1970's at the latest. The quality is all excellent and it has nice engraving. The wood is very, very good but not exhibition. It handles and swings great. $6500. If it were a 450 nitro I would buy it.

Mac,

Jiri is just enjoying free speech which he now has because the US took on the commie block in the cold war.

That's gratitude.

Russ Broom had the first .458 double that I saw and this was many years ago. But, he had plenty trouble with the extraction. Like Ray, said, once the casing starts out of the chamber, there is side play. This lets the case jump over that little spring loaded piece of metal. Another problem that can happen, is, to much oil will make that lite spring to stick and not work at all.
George

Mac,

The reason I mentioned the 460 Weatherby is because it can be loaded down to 2400 fps and will have lower pressure than my 458 Lott at 2320 fps. I have a 460 Weatherby, 458 Lott, 416 Rigby, and several other smaller calibers. To this day I have yet to pick up a double. Just wanted to ask a few questions that were not status quo.

The current doubles that I am interested in are the 450 #2, 500/416, and the 470. I actually have several 470 bullets in Barnes X's and solids just sitting around. Is that not being optimistic or what!

If the doubles cannot handle the pressure, then I can understand that. If anything but a rimmed cartridge is loonacy, then I am the last that wants to tempt Mr. Murphy. Remember, I am the one that refuses to put QD levers on the bolt port side. What confused me a bit was that some of the biggest name manufacturers offers doubles in rimless, belted, high pressure chamberings. So at least someone else thought of this before I did!

Century arms who closed down over here a few years go, were making double rifles in 500 jeffery for a while.I beleive they were regulated for about 2300 with 535 grainers, not sure what pressure that would be.
These guys made fine doubles and singles right up to 600 nitro.Not sure what they were trying to acheive with the jefferies, but they sold a few.

Karl.

You will notice that Merkle is very quite about the 416 and 375, they are now very hard to come buy....Frankly, they are shooting right off the face plenty quick even with those very heavy chambers and barrels, or so I have been told by a large distributor. they are pushing the 470 and rightly so.

It's strange that despite the advice of the best professionals against the use of rimless and belted cartridges in double rifles they continue to be made.

I know much less about guns than 90% of the members here, but one company, Marcel Thys www.marcelthys.com advertises double rifles in all sorts of belted and rimless calibers including .416 and .460 Weatherby and Renato Gamba offered a double rifle chambered in .458 Lott for a while long before loaded ammunition was available on a regular basis. Their website is http://www.renatogamba.it/catalogue/18.html hey still offer it in .458 Win.

I wonder if anyone here has had any experience in the field with these. Please post here if you do.

Thanks in advance.

Dumb question here, what is meant by the term "shoot off the face"? Been shooting 30+ years and never heard it. Is this something pertaining only to double rifles?

Longbob
Probably the biggest disadvantage of the rimless cartridge in a double is negating its pedigree.

Hunters take dangerous game with muzzleloaders, single shots and handguns(and bows and arrows).The ONLY 'quick second shot' and 'reliability'that matters is the one the PH will fire if he needs to.

I know of guys with rimless doubles who have had no problems but if anyone has reports to the contrary I won't argue. That just constitutes normal debate.

But it is a lot of money to spend to lose the highest pedigree...

Karl.

[ 04-14-2003, 13:17: Message edited by: Karl ]

Talking Head,
Shoot off face...(this is my words, and probably wrong, but you'll get the point) means creating excessive headspace, by the action either
a: twisting
b: streching
c: locking mechanism taking damage (combo of a&B)

think of it as lug setback for a double.
jeffe

Oh, that ain't good! Thanks!

Rimmed cartridges are acknowledged to give better extraction. But how about belted cases? They are "almost" rimmed?? I have a "combination" by Heym that uses a .30/'06 case. It seems to function satisfactorily as regards extraction.....

[ 04-14-2003, 23:33: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Cliff LaBounty has done a pretty good business rechambering and reboring .458 Doubles for Westley Richards. Normally, to 470. I think they extracted ok and I don't know anything about them shooting off of the face. What I do know was that Westley Richards coudn't sell them. Period.

I engraved a Westley for a client about ten years ago. It was a drop lock, chambered in 318 Westley.
He told me that he had NEVER had an extraction or ejection problem. In fact, it was one of his favorite doubles.

I meant to add that several fellows have already answered this question effectively. There are plenty of great rimmed calibers out there already.
One of the most valuable lessons learned early on was to keep the pressure down and the bore size and bullet weight up
R Kehr

[ 04-15-2003, 06:25: Message edited by: Scrollcutter ]

Marcel Thys made a sidelock double about 8 years ago. A friend of mine had the rifle for a time and wanted to sell it to me. I was not at all interested although the rifle was beautiful. I found out later that Thys stated he would never build another like it do to the fact that it was difficult to regulate and had a lot of problems "staying on the face"

Jiri, you are correct about falling-block doubles, etc. But these are a lot clumsier and heavier, harder to handle and mostly poorly balanced compared with a good double sidelock....