Does anyone here have any experience with the .450 Rigby? If so what are your thoughts? Looks like a great round on paper.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Homebrew:
Hi Homebrew,
The 450 Rigby is basically the non belted 460 Weatherby. Any 500 grain bullet in the 2450 to 2500 fps range will spell devestation. This should be a great cartridge for dangerous game.
470 Mbogo

Homebrew,

The 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota and 460 Wby are all basically the same.

However, with standard reamers the 460 Wby has huge freebore as compared to the other two and this can and does make it more difficult to work mid range loads, especially with lighter bullets.

I think the Dakota will be a bit better setup than the 450 Rigby for loading dies and headstamped brass.

Both the 450 Rigby and Dakota are based on the 416 Rigby necked up to 458 and them improved so as to provide sufficient shoulder for headspacing.

Mike

I have been thinking abou the .460 weatherby and it seems to be a very versatile cartridge in my opinion with it's ability to be loaded up or down, what problems do you envisage Mike ???

PC,

With reduced loads, the ideal situation is the bullet right onto the rifling and the 460 is just the opposite situation.

However heavy bullets do offset this to a degree. For example, I had very good results with 500 Hornady an 85 grains of 4064 for just over 2000.

But when bullets get lighter hangfires become the order of the day. The 458 can also have similar problesm with mid range loads and 300 grainers because standard 458 chamber also have very big bullet travel. Although the 458 is better than the 460 because of the smaller case.

It is quite amazing how much difference it makes if the bullet is into the rifling.

If you want to try an experiment, set up your 30/06 so that with 180s the bullets will jam in the rifling fora few thou when you close the bolt.

Now load up some 2206, say about 35 grains and work down. You will be suprised how good the results will be and just how low you can go in powder charge.

If reduced loads are based around flake type shotgun and pistol powders things are different. If my memory is working OK, I use to use 28 grains of Dupont HiScore 700X with 400 grain Speers and velocity was about 1250 f/s and very good accuracy. It is the mid range area and with mid to light weight bullets where the difficultie arrise.

Actually, the 45 caliber situation is one reason I decided to make bullets in 416 because it all seemed better in the long run to fix the 416 bullet problem than deal with the 45 caliber rifle problem.

However, if I was going down the big 45 caliber route again (and for me reduced loads are always a big part of my loading) I think I would rebarrel a CZ 416 to 460 but with a reamer set up for conventional freebore.

I would pick the 460 over either the 450 Rigbuy/Dakota for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, belted cases are much better for very reduced loads as the headspace does not increase with each shot as it does with rimless.

Secondly, brass availability for the 460 is always better because you always have brass oround in at least 1 or 2 of the Wby calibers based on the 378.

Of course is the rifle was to be a real custom rifel, then I wuld take the 450 Rigby as it is just a "classier" thing than the 460 Wby. Ditto for 416 Rigby and 416 Wby.

Mike

[ 08-23-2002, 09:15: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Thanks Mike,

I get the picture. I have always had in my head ever since owing a 45/70 and shooting sierra 300 gr HPFN's at 2150 and watching them blow up on game that they would perfrom better again for my style of shooting if driven at 3000 fps from a .460 weatherby, they could probably be driven at near 3100-3200 fps maybe. Any way does not look like it would work.

PC,

Backed off loads or full loads are not a problem.

The problems arise with midway loads.

Basically, loads with shotgun or pistol type flake powders are fine. However you don't get much velocity with them, at least not with accuracy. For example, a 460 might peak out at perhaps 1500 or 1700 with 300 grainers and shotgun powders.

Thus you run into the problem area in the 2000 area plus, maybe up to 2400 or so.

In the last 460 I had, a 100 grains of IMR 4350 would hangfire when used with the 400 Speer seated to the rear cannelure. Although if I seated the bullet deeper to the first cannelure, even though that increased the freebore, the reduction in case capacity stopped the hangfires and accuracy was excellent.

Mike

If anyone needs any 450 Dakota or Rigby brass, I have 20 virgin cases made from 460 Wby brass (the belts are turned off) I will sell for $20 plus a couple of bucks for shipping.(SOLD)

[ 09-12-2002, 21:18: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

Interesting Mike, I will have to get a .458 whatever big bore one day, even just to drive the 300 gr sierra's hard as well as the rem 405 gr 45/70 bullets.

PC,

With standard 460 chamber, if loads were from those that equalled full 458 Winchester loads for the various weight 45 bullets you would be fine.

Mike

Homebrew,
I load my .450 Rigby down to around 2300 fps and it actually knocks buffalo down. If they are excited by previous gunfire or lions or whatever, one may get back up again but it is so sick and wobbly that the second shot is more for mercy than insurance. In a CZ large action you can fit four cartridges into the magazine with only a little fiddling. The Wby only holds 2. Now if you are just popping 'roos Down Under that might not make much of a difference and being able to play around with light-to-medium loads would be useful. On the other hand, if you are building this thing to do what it was designed for, than those squib loads don't become any kind of a factor at all and the extra rounds can be almighty important. I feel that the big Rigby is vastly superior to the silly belted version but then, I'm a Californian and I don't have a Hell of a lot of respect for Weatherby cartridges. Damned carpetbagger!

Old sarge,

with some mods you would have to be able to get three .460 weatherby's in the mag of a cz. I have had a .585 built and it has three down and one in the spout. It may bespossible to even get 4 in if a new box & follower was made. I agree with you though the .450 Rigby would probably be more practical, can you get headstamped brass for it ??. And can it drive bullets to the same velocityas the .460 W if you want to ??

Kynoch produces factory ammo for the .450 Rigby. I'm not sure if you can get headstamped brass for reloading.

Bertram used to produce headstamped .450 Rigby brass but no longer does, according to my most recent Huntington's catalog. Admittedly there have been some complaints on this forum about how soft some of their brass is, but you could contact the company. Hornebar is supposed to be bringing it out soon. As far as Kynoch is concerned, I'd just email David Little at Kynamco and ask him how much the empty brass would be and what would be the minimum order.

In any event, I don't feel that a lack of headstamped brass is a problem unless you have the giant bucks to take you to Botswana. And if you can hunt Botswana, you can afford factory ammo from Kynoch! The reforming of .416 Norma into .450 is elementary, just use a tapered expander ball and it's a one-pass process, though fireforming is definitely recommended.

Can you load the big Rigby up to Wby velocities? Oh yeah! I wouldn't want to, not just for the recoil but because there has been some decent research that indicates that at DG ranges, velocities over 2400 actually reduce penetration. I'd stick to 105-106 gr. of IMR 4350 or 110-111 gr. of 4831 and be perfectly confident that any blue whale that decides to charge me up the beach is a whole bunch of gumbo just waiting to boil.

Sarge,

I really believe that you either have to be right into the "Rigby" thing or alternatively are having a real nice custom gun made, or a match to a 350 and 416 Rigby for the 450 Rigby to be worthwhile.

A 460 Wby "without huge freebore" reamer is hardly the caliber I would select for a real nice custom gun on a Mauser type action.

But for a big banger I think it is the best out of the Wby/Rigby/Dakota and brass is the simple reason.

If you like to shoot real light plinking loads then the belted case is an additional benefit.

Another plus with the brass, although I think this would be more applicable in Australia than America, is that if you can't get 416 Norma Rigbys that is that. But with Wby you have 30/378, 338/378, 378 and 416 also in the stable of cases and you will always get at least one or two of those cases.

Mike

This is a little off the main topic but the talk of hang fires has me thinking about using lathe turned cases on the order of the old "Ballard Everlasting" style with super heavy case walls to reduce internal capacity for reduced loads. If made with a small enough internal volume so that it would be completely impossible to get a "normal": load into them, safty should not pose a problem. Would the length of the powder collum be the problem?
richard

Richard10X,

That has often crossed my mind.

Certainly, thick walls on the 378 Wby case size to reduce it to H&H size would not cause a problem with the powder column lenght as the two cases are the same lenght.

How difficult would it be to have them made so as the neck/shoulder areas were the right thickness for necking down to the caliber in question.

The other thingt that has crossed my mind from time to time is to have a die made that forced the shoulder right back and gave a very long neck.

Several years ago I was playing about with the 358 STA and using some necked up 340 Wby cases. I could get very good accuracy with 55 grains of Varget and 180 and 200 grain bullets. However the pressure was not enought to fireform out the Wby shoulder. I fired come of the cases 2 or 3 times and still the Wby shoulder would fireform out.

60 grains moved the shoulder forward and to the shape of the 358 STA in one shot.

I have had this cross my mind as well for field loads to use with paper patch or cast as the the long neck created would contain the whole greae groove or patched area of the bullet.

Mike

Mike,
Of course one has to decide just what the hell silly motivation he has for wanting any of the Class III DGR's. They are genuine beasts, manageable beasts, to be sure, but still not the sort of thing you would take out for a day's gopher hunting. If what you want is a really big bore to take out and shoot, and shoot and shoot, then I must agree that if, as your experience shows, the Wby is better for light loads and Wby brass is a lot cheaper, then go Weatherby! I had different ideas. Being a basically timorous soul with excessive regard for my personal skin, I chose the Rigby for raw firepower and beginner loads bedamned. From this standpoint I still feel that (for an American or Northern European with easy access to Norma brass) the Rigby is the better choice. From yours, the Wby makes perfect sense.

Hi Sarge,

I wonder if you could sell me a few 450 Rigby fire formed cases. I have a 45 caliber barrel blank coming and try to decide which 45 I like best. Plus it is always good to have a few dummy rounds around. Please email me at minglee0072002@yahoo.com about the price if you are interested. Thanks a lot. Cheers! Ming

Sarge,

You might rememebr some time ago I was going to go down the Rigby route on both 375/416 and 450.

But, everytime I break out into a rash of cannon fever I invariably finish back with Wby and for two basic reasons.

Firstly, it is easy. They are just there.

Secondly, the Wby is much cheaper because (for me)it does lot lead one down the road of quarter ribs etc.

A couple of other things I prefer with the Wby over say the CZs is that they take any Rem 700 scope mounts and also once the trigger return spring is replaced you can usually adjust the trigger from about 12 ounces through to 3 pounds and without taking the rifle apart. Sear engagement is also adjustable with taking the gun apart.

But for a high class rifle destined for Africa they don't quite fit the scene, especially the Pre 95 ones with Made in Japan written on the side

Mike