Gents,

Any shooters of the 458 Lott out there?

My understanding is that you can shoot 458 Win. Mag in the 458 Lott.

Does this practice do damage to the chamber area of the rifle?

How much 458 Win. can be fired in the Lott chamber?

Roger QSL

I have one.

You can shoot 458 win mag in it. But it may erode the chamber a bit causing roughness that could make extraction of Lott brass a bit sticky. I consider the use of 458 win mag ammo in my lott to be an emergency only procedure. Since I reload, it really does not matter what brass I start with, so I start with the right stuff.

I also have one, and have shot plenty of .458WM
without any trouble. How would it differ
from shooting .38 from a .357? Just keep it
clean.

577ne

The 38 spl is a low pressure cartridge not pushing much burning powder out into the chamber (about 3 grains). The 458 wm is loaded to high pressure and will move 70 grains of burning powder into the chamber. That is the reason for concern.

500 grs. is correct...Ok for emergency but not a good practice...like using 06 brass necked down to 270, the shorter 06 brass will erode the chamber much the same as hot gasses erode the throat of a rifle....

OK-I stand corrected. But wasn't there something
in the A-Square book saying several hundred
WM shots showed no evidence of corrosion in a
Lott?? I've shot maybe 100 WM in mine, and it looks and works fine. I'd better stop.

Now that Hornady 458 Lott brass can be had for $30 per 50, there is no reason to shoot .458 WM ammo in a Lott. Just load the Lott ammo down if you want light loads. In a pinch (on safari) you could use 458 WM ammo if you arrive without your Lott ammo and all you can find is WM ammo. However, I can't imagine you would shoot 100 rounds in that situation. Probably more like 20 or less, and that shouldn't cause any problem.

Tim

With the powder burnrates and expansion ratio's associated with this cartridge, I doubt you'll ever notice but I suppose it only makes sense to keep it to a minimum and let your barrel cool.

577,
I suspect it would take a lot of shooting to effect the bore/chamber to a noticable degree, depending on a lot of variances...I wouldn't be too concerned, just aware...

I understand that there are two different "standard" reamers for the LOTT. One is noteably longer in the throat.

Does anyone know for sure and who has the different reamers and specs?

Tye can't get his up to speed with the 500 gr. bullets and we suspect that this is the problem.

Thanks,

SAM

SAM--What powder and how much is he using.Ed.

Big Sam,

The 458 lott has a case length of 2.800", while the 450 Watts is identical except that it has a case length of 2.850". Maybe your friend has his reamed for the shorter length but he expected the longer. Also, some barrels are just slow. I always buy super premium match grade barrels that are honed to a mirror like finish inside the bore, as I think the reduced friction lets the rifle reach high velocity at lower pressure.

500grains is right about barrel smoothness.
Differences can mean a 100 fps change on some
loads.Or more.Some barrels that are rough,also
have tight spots,and should be honed out with
a lead lap or polished with a polishing compound on few bullets.

If he is using stick powder he can get better velocity with higher energy ball powder,
without raising pressures.That is why I asked about powder and how much.Ed.

My favorite load is 83 gr. H4895. This produces 2320 fps in my 24" barrel.

Longbob--Use WW-760 ball powder with 500 gr
bullet..Fill case to see
what it holds max to base of bullet, tamped down.
Then load 88% of that and work up if no pressure signs.Don't load less than 88%.Should start about 82-84 gr.Ed.

I have a custom built .458 Lott--it is based on a CZ 550 Magnum action, which is essentially an improved, double square bridged magnum Mauser M98.

And yes, you may shoot .458 Win. Mag. ammo all you want in your .458 Lott. There may be some slight erosion in the forward portion of the chamber, but it would take a lot of shooting with the Win. round for that to become a problem. It is just the same as shooting .38 Special rounds in a weapon chambered for the .357 Magnum.

Two other points: (1) the shorter Win. rounds probably will not feed reliably from your magazine, if it has been properly set up for the Lott round, and (2) accuracy may suffer somewhat owing to the amount of "freebore" between the chambered bullet and the start of the rifling in the barrel.

I understand that some makers these days are chambering the Lott with enough length in the chamber even to accept the slightly longer .450 Watts Magnum. Mine did. This does not affect function or accuracy with the Lott round.

Best of luck with your Lott.

Ed,

What should I expect from the 760? It seems to be quite a bit slower burning than the H4895. 83 gr. of H4895 is just slightly compressed with FMJ Hornady 500 gr bullets and the accuracy is very good. This is without a drop tube. I like my loads to be very slightly compressed.

Ray Atkinson really likes IMR 4320. I couldn't get the velocity that he gets. I cannot even get the number of grains of powder of 4320 that he gets in the case and keep it at a 3.60" COL. He may use a drop tube.

I'm a little leary of compressing any ball powder. Stick powder I'm fine with. I still have the hang-up of the ball powder problems that the Winchester 458 experienced. Naturally, I have kept away from them with my Lott.

D'Arcy Echols clued me into using H4895 and Varget. He has tried most all of the powders for the Lott including IMR 4320. He couldn't get the velocity that he was looking for except with H4895 or Varget and he said that the groups tightened up considerably. My experience mimics his.

Longbob

Ball powder will give great speeds if the case capacity is right.

If we take 748 and 760 then calibres where say 4064 and 4350 are bit slow will benefit from the two ball powders because you can get so much more in the case. Another example is the 270 with 110 grain bullets and the old Winchester 785.

However if the calibre in question means maximum loads will be reached with the same weight of ball and stick powder then velocity will be lower with ball powder. Win 760 and IMR 4350 in the 270 with 110 grain bullets being an example and also 130 grain bullets.

Mike

Longbob-If a full case of WW-760 doesn't show
high pressures, but has good velocity and accuracy,you'd have a winner. I posted, thinking you were looking for more speed.The load you have now that is accurate, is also a winner in that
aspect, with velocity you have.Ed.

Thank you Mike and Ed for the information. I've never worked with ball powder before. I may take a look at a couple.

Longbob

My guess would be that Win 748 would be the ball powder for the 458 Lott if it requires compressed loads of powders like 4064, 4895. Win 760 tends to cut in when a calibre/bullet combination needs compressed loads of 4350.

A good example is the 375 H&H with 300 grain Spitzers. The 4064s burn rates are too fast and 4350 burn rates are too slow unless you are happy with very very compressed loads. However 760 will do 2500 f/s in cruise mode. Actuall Win 760 produces very similar peak pressure when an equal volume is used as compared to 4064.

In other words max loads for both 4064 and Win 760 will use a similar powder measure setting but the charge of 760 will be quite a bit heavier.

Mike

Guys, I've had great results with 83 grains of VihtaVuori N540, Federal 215 primers, Bell brass and Woodleigh 500 grain softs and solids--this load produces 2175 fps at 40 degrees Fahrenheit and is very accurate. Needless to say, use a heavy crimp.

Have you tried RL-7? It fits the case size well. I use it for X bullets which are longer yet. Mine drives the 450 X bullet to 2300 plus from my 22" barrel. It's the best load I have used in my Lott. I have not recovered a single bullet, all have exited so far. The Exits are massive and the game is nearly always dropped at the shot. I did shoot a blue wildebeest that was wounded by one of my hunters this past season. It staggerd and ran about 20 yards before falling. He was so broken up internally we could not get him to stay upright for the photos. The shoulders and front legs were bone pulp. How he ran is a miricale to everyone who saw it! There were actually pieces of bone lying on the ground behind him. I have noticed the bigger animals like Giraffe and Buffalo seem to have a great effect with this cartridge. Most stagger and fall on or near the spot they were standing. Few run, and those that do take only a few steps before the broken bones are rendered fully ruined by their own weight trying to continue using them. I witnessed this on a Giraffe with a broken bone in a leg. He stood fine but when he took the first few steps the leg buckled and he was down. Those big monolithic bullets are the best at breaking heavy bone. Lead core bullets don't have the integrity for many shots and angles you get. Especially during backup work.

[ 06-15-2003, 16:59: Message edited by: JJHACK ]

JJ,

Were you able to get the Barnes X to penetrate through the Giraffe's bones? I shot my Giraffe twice from about 75 yards with TBBC's. Once in the shoulder and once in the neck. Neither one pentrated all the way through. I couldn't believe it. I swore if I shot another one, it would only be with solids. There were two PH's there and they couldn't believe it either. Those Giraffes are tough buggars.

With 500 grain bullets, the usable case capacity of the 458 Win is 74 grains of water, and the Lott is 86 grains. Even though the Win is SAAMI rated at 53,000 CUP, it is very difficult to generate more than 45,000 CUP and hence the practical energy capability of the Win is 5200 FP, while the theoretical capability is 5750 FP. The extra 12 grs in the LOTT solves much of this low pressure problem, and generates 6000 FP with ease...more if you use the right powder.

In my 458 Win double rifle, I can seat the bullet out .30 inches and duplicate the Lott...no big trick as the case capacity is the same. I used several powders before achieving this, and finally discovered AA2230...its about as perfect for both the Win and the Lott as possible. The bulk density is 1.0 and the energy and uniformity is very high.

In fact, it achieves the theoretical max of 5750 FP in the Win and 500 gr bullets held to 3.34 COL, and does not require compression.

Hi there, I use a custom .458 Lott bolt action rifle. I recently developed nice ammo featuring the 400gr X-Bullet in front of 80gr H4895 and a Federal 215 primer. They print MOA-groups at 100 yards. I'll shoot some nasty crop raiding boars within the next months.

Keep your powder dry!

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your responses.

I am just getting back to this topic. I do not have Tye's data but will provide it soon. He has a premium bench rest barrel and has tried many loads.

More to follow.

SAM

Longbob, The bones were broken and they were broken from the bullet with help from the massive weight of the animal. When a Giraffe runs it lifts it's front end high into the air and when the legs come down with the masse front heavy body weight the legs could not hold up the massive pounding. I don't think the bones were broken in half cleanly but rather shattered reducing the structeral integrity of the skeleton. No Lead core bullet I have seen will manage this as well as the X or a tungsten solid.

Giraffe skin is as thick or thicker then Rhino in amy areas. It's a much tougher animal then a Buffalo from the point of body part strength. No skin on any part of a buffalo compares to the skin on the back of the neck of a giraffe or on the sides of the body. A giraffe is very much underrated as a tough to kill hunting trophy. Head and neck shots are a different story but miss by a little with those shots and you will be tracking forever to find him. They can see you from a long way off and when they know they are being followed or pushed they will never let you get close again!

JJHack,

would you reccomend from say .416 Rigby on up for Giraffe ??

How would a .416 Rigby loaded with 410 Grain Woodleigh Softs perform on them ?? Or would your prefer to use .458 Lotts etc. ??

For top velocity in a 458 lott, I would try out 84 to 88 grains of IMR4320 behind a 500 grain soft point. Start below that and work up.

PC, a 375HH with solids is a dandy rifle for Giraffe. Never seen it fail with good placement and bullets. We took what will likley be a new Number one Rhino this past month. Green score 107. It was killed with a 375HH and 300 grain tungsten solids. Anything bigger is fine but the 375HH with good bullets and accurate placement is "just right".

I believe too much is placed on the size of the gun and not nearly enough on the knowledge of anatomy and skilled shooting.

Anatomy knowledge and shooting skill are of far greater value in killing an animal then bore diameter. That said, when defending your life bore diameter certainly has it's merrit. Recreational sport hunters have little to zero need to "defend their life" with a firearm.

I have not seen a Sport hunter yet that can hit a charging animal when under stress fire conditions. Heck few PH's can either! Sure there is a certain "romance" to having a big bore in Africa but the reality is that a 30/06, 338, 300 mag, 375HH are all just fine plains game rifles and for the biggest baddest animals a 375HH with a scope is plenty to kill anything alive with little trouble.

I have not seen a big animal shot properly with a 375HH or a 416(any flavor) that has walked away and escaped. I doubt that the trauma is significanly different internally from one to the other. Bigger bore diameter then those two is not what I would consider a sporting rifle. I would rather call them Professional hunter insurance policies! I have shot and killed a number of big animals with my 458 Lott. But I have not hunted with it for any animals yet! I will use my scope sighted 375HH every time over the Lott for my sport hunting.

There are a few instances where the Lott is the better gun for hunting, but very few. Those instances are based more on the close range thick bush conditions my short barreled open sighted Lott becomes easier to shoot with, then the power or bore diameter difference.

[ 06-20-2003, 18:43: Message edited by: JJHACK ]

Hmmmm. You can shoot 458 Win Mag in a 458 Lott, you can shoot 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott in a 458 Watts, and you can shoot 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, and 458 Watts in a 450 Ackley. Interesting. - Dan

500grains--Only if there is a bear in there with you...All those others won't shoot in my wildcat,
as my base is a little larger.Ed.

Thanks JJHack.

I have custom .585 Nyati and by the sounds of your post I have not got an excuse to "need" it for an African hunt

I suppose I will take my Vanilla .375 or .416 (the .375 I have grown particularly fond of the more I use it).

When I go To Africa I want to hunt Kudu, Zebra, Warthogs and if money permits Buff & Girraffe. In particular I want Kudu & Zebra (Zebra for a Mat)

Longbob,
I think you should check your reamer, take a cast of your your chamber if you cannot get 83 to 85 grs. of IMR-4320 in it with ease....somewhere their you WILL get 2350 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet in the Lott. No other powder will do that.

For those of you who think you understand the 458 Lott and use any other powder I suggest that you read ".458 Lott, the case that Jack Built" by G. Sitton, in the no. 135 Rifle magazine, dated May-June, 1991, it appears it may be quite and eye opener to some on this board...

I have found it to be correct in every way other than some ebony lined magazine boxes which is bound to be hooey...

At any rate its there for what its worth...Today I think I would opt for the 458-3" that has proved so popular in South Africa..Might as well, kant dance!

Ray,

If I remember right, you were using quite a bit more than 83 to 85 grains of 4320. I thought your load was upwards of 87 gr. for IMR 4320. I can get 83 to 85 in my cases and keep the COL at 3.60". So, it's not a matter of my chamber. What is your 4320 load and the COL of your Lott loads?

Ray,

I may be wrong about your load of IMR 4320. I think I'm referring to your max load. Anything over 83 gr. is pretty compressed when I use Hornaday 500 gr. FMJ and GS Custom FN's. And grain for grain, the 4320 didn't give me the velocity that H4895 did.

These are the results of H4895 out of my 24" barrel Winchester M70 458 Lott. These are Hornady 500 gr FMJ.
80 gr.
2235 fps
2234 fps
2258 fps
2261 fps
2266 fps

82 gr.
2314 fps
2287 fps
2307 fps
2294 fps
2285 fps

83 gr.
2320 fps
2324 fps
2341 fps
2343 fps
2344 fps

84 gr.
2318 fps
2330 fps
2344 fps
2370 fps
2363 fps

RL-15 85gr
2232 fps
2228 fps
2218 fps
2227 fps

RL-15 86gr
2240 fps
2218 fps
2255 fps
2246 fps

RL-15 87gr
2275 fps
2283 fps
2272 fps
2257 fps
2281 fps

IMR 4320 86gr
2307 fps
2287 fps
2296 fps
2288 fps
2294 fps

In my 458 Lott which is a M700 w/22" bbl.
500gr Horn RNSP 85gr IMR-4320 2246fps Max

500gr Horn RNSP 84gr IMR-4320 2223fps Most accurate

500gr Horn FMJ 83gr IMR-4320 2236fps Max.

IMR-4320 is a wonderful general purpose powder ... but , after using it for 40 years, I can tell you that it has never proven to be the "last word" powder for any loading. I've always found better. I've .458 Lott loadings with a half dozen powders that surpassed it in my particular rifles.