The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .410" 400 gr Woodleigh solid?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Have a question about effective straight line penetration with the various 40 cal Woodleigh FMJ solids, I have a backup rifle for buffalo in 400 H&H, the bullets run a very accurate 2400 fps. Question is, have any of you men used these on Buffalo or other heavy African game with complete satisfaction, 450-400 Nitro, 416 Rigby and Remington, 404 Jeffery etc, etc? I have a heavy 577 Nitro with 750gr Barnes TSX and banded flat nosed solids, but do not want to lose a chance at a great Buffalo on my next trip to Africa due to range, the 400 H&H will also be used for Waterbuck, Warthog, Hartebeest and/or any other exceptional plains game animal that should appear, 400gr Alaska Bullet Works Kodiaks will get the work done for them. Many Thanks in advance for all help and experiences. | ||
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Cutting Edge! Michael458 did extensive testing with a number of bullet brands and styles. | |||
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Thanks Biebs, but Cutting Edge and even Northfork solids are unobtanium right now. I cant even find anything about the 40 cal Woodleigh FMJ's searching the world wide web, that said, did find the 9.3 320gr Woodleigh FMJ was a stellar performer. | |||
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In 2019 I shot a buffalo and numerous plains game with Woodleigh .410 400 grains in my .450-400 Harrison and Hussey ble. I recovered some softs. The fmj passed though everything except one that I recovered from the far shoulder of the buffalo. Lots of hype is given to new bullets with foolish names to get buyers. I only use Woodleigh as they are fine and are traditional. They just look right in a vintage doubles. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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In my experience, the Woodleigh Weldcore penetrates very well with modest expansion. The Woodleigh solid usually shoots through and is not recovered. I used 400 grain, .411 Woodies in my 1895 .405 WCF at just under 2100 fps on the little old buff below. The Weldcore entered just behind the rearmost left rib and exited between the front legs, passing through all innards and leaving a 1+ inch diameter hole in the heart. The beast kicked its left hind leg and began to slowly walk to cover, so I put a 400 grain Woodie solid through the pelvis which caused it to make a ground shaking crash to the ground; solid passed through and was not recovered. Very memorable at just 20 yards.  I like North Forks also, but Woodleighs have been getting the job done for many years and should not let you down. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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That'll work, Thanks Cal, did you get straight line penetration with those solids? I don't doubt the combination of 400 grains and 40 cal, I've been reading they're some of the best penetrators in Africa all my life and have been for over 100 years, my concern is reaching the vitals in a straight line. | |||
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Nice! hell of a deal CRShelton, Thanks for that, I have the bonded 400gr Kodiaks for softs, sadly they're the last ones i'll get, Karl at Alaska Bullet Works drew those down for me from .416 not long before he passed, i'll shoot those bullets on the next hunt in his honor, have 400gr A-Frames to pull slack for the remainder of the days with that rifle. | |||
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Jerry, I just re-read your post and saw the reference to ABW. I agree, especially on the Kodiak 450 grain .458 FMJ at 2150 fps. That combo knocked down an Ele, and shot through several Cape Buff and a Texas bison. That was in a bullet testing venture a few years ago using Miroku/Winchester 1886 rifles and a wide variety of custom loaded ammo. The NF and Punch bullets were best for ele frontal brain shots (shot through and into body) and the Kodiak was tops on all other large DG. We backed off to 300 grain Nosler Protected Point for thin skinned game, including this goat eating leopard;  .45-90 DG Rifle:  PS, Cal knows that I have DRs, but also shares a passion for big bore lever actions. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Good stuff, Thanks again CRS, that's a hell of a Leopard, I have no doubts ole Karl's bonded Kodiaks getting the job done, I shoot his 250's in an old 348 Winchester with bolt peep, accurate hole drilling some b's they are! | |||
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Yes. Straight line for the solid recovered and straight line for all the pass throughs--buffalo, eland, kudu, etc. Also straight line on my elephant with a .500 solid and many buffalo and hippo with a .600 solid. _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Good, good stuff, Thanks Cal, that's what I'm looking for, after a bite of lunch, went out to the load shop to check, have two and a half boxes of the .410 400gr Woodleigh FMJ solids, looks like I'm GTG, very glad to hear that's a good straight line penetrator. Also makes me feel better about the two 600gr Woodleigh bullets I have loaded to 2150 fps for my 505 Gibbs, the PP Weldcore soft and FMJ solid, need to get that rifle to Africa too. | |||
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The world is your oyster. Plink with .410-caliber pistol bullets. As noted ABW sized some .416 bullets down to .411 or .410 for you. I do that with .416 TSX bullets and TTSX. Works well for .400 Whelen, (.411), .405 WCF (.411), 450/400 NE 3" (.410"), and a .410/404J (.410"). I can even get them down to .408" for the 10.4mm Spiridon Moor (.408/.338 LM). No flies on the accuracy. I was playing with that .410/.404J just before I got off on the .458 WIN tangent. BTW, if your rifle is .410"-grooved, the .408" jacketed and monometal bullets will work wonders in it too. I would love to find out what kind of cast bullets Jerry McDonald would use in a .400 H&H. How fast and heavy would he dare go with what alloys and hardness, plain-base and grease-lubed. I am thinking a 400-grain FN gas-checked, PC-painted, hardcast would perform well at 2200 fps and slower, sized to .412" in a .410-groove.  | |||
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My experience with Woodleigh solids is limited, because I dont hunt large enough game to need a solid very often. And these are 500gn 45 cal, so not exactly what you are asking about. But I figure its relevant - feel free to ignore if you dont think so. The below bullets were recovered from a cape buff bull. The soft was the first shot. 2 of the FMJs were shot into the rear of the departing bull, and recovered in the front of the chest. The 3rd FMJ was an insurance shot through the spine between the shoulder blades as we approached the animal once it was on the ground. It was recovered under the skin of the rib cage in front of the brisket. So I would say no issues with straight line penetration.   | |||
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RIP, yes sir, Karl at ABW drew down those fine bullets for me, glad to hear you do that too, a 350gr TTSX at 2500 fps would be a world beater for all game, my rifle is .411 inch. Speaking of 408/409 cast bullets Lyman makes a hell of a grease groove 40 cal flat nosed bullet of 415gr, don't remember the mould number, but it's easy to find and one we've spoke a lot about here and elsewhere hunting with 40 cal Sharps rifles, I'd cast that bullet with 22BHN alloy and ler er rip, no pun intended ; ] 18 to 22 hundred fps would most likely shoot through anything that would call for a soft point bullet. Bwana 500, Thank You, that is very relevant to me as well, damn good info, i'll bet the reason solid number three didn't exit was because of the ground, thick heavy stretchy hide coupled with punching the ground held it in. I just ordered two boxes of the Cutting Edge .411 400gr solids, i'll go ahead and use the 400gr Woodleigh FMJ solids for my next trip over, save and order more of both later, never hurts to have them saved up for hard times, they certainly wont spoil. | |||
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SAGA OF THE WALKING BEER BOX by Jerry McDonald:    | |||
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RIP, thank you Sir for posting the pics, storm in the area, pics wont load all the way on my end, what we have here is indeed a beer box I walked out from 75 to 210 yards and had at it with the 400gr Woodleigh FMJ solids The top shot is the bullets highest point in it's trajectory, 75 yards, I then walked the box to 100 yards. Next is a shot around +3.25" at 100 yards. Third is after walking the box to 150 yards. Fourth and last round fired with scope is at a full 210 yards, point of this is putting the 400 to work as a backup Buffalo rifle, also finding a plus or minus of roughly 4 inches of bullet deviation to all the way to 210 yards, I think the little 400 H&H done fine. The upper right shot is at 50 yards off sticks with the iron barrel sights, I packed the 577 Nitro and loaded shell belt walking this box all around today, great exercise. Next photo is the box flipped to show 577 Nitro exits, after the bolt rifle iron sight shot, I ran out to the 50 yard box, flipped it over then ran back, got the 577 on sticks and fired two rounds as fast as I could, much like one might excited to get a shot off on a real Buffalo, I like practicing under pressure trying to make myself fumble and fail. Last photo is the 400 alongside Biebs' old 577 Nitro with 26 inch barrels leaning against the little barn at the back yard gate, took em in for a good cleaning and wiping, they're ready to go hunting. | |||
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Good shootin'. I bet you could afford to lower the scoped-trajectory of the 400 H&H by some fraction of an inch at 100 yards, flat as it shoots. Fine for minute of buffalo as is. | |||
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Thanks RIP, and you're right, but, using the 400 as a plains game rig too, I may need to reach a Waterbuck, hartebeest or Warthog to 300 yards, the ABW 400gr semi spitzer soft only drops 10 inches at 300 yards. | |||
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RIP, waiting on daylight this morning went back and found some old target groups, the 400gr A-Frames and ABW Kodiaks shoot a bit flatter than the Woodleigh solid, they're both just over 3 inches at 75 and 100 yards, the 4.25 inch strike at 75 yards with the solid would indeed still be within MOA shooting with all brands of 400gr weight bullets. The bit higher was most likely me trying to steer a bullet with 5 power scope, first shot from clean cold barrel, etc, who knows, but as you said minute of fleeing buffalo all day long. I'm glad to learn these Woodleigh FMJ solids penetrate straight in animal tissue, I knew they were accurate in my rifle, Varget powder in all loads will keep velocities steady throughout the year, season to season, continent to continent.  | |||
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Jerry, is that my old Verney Carron 577? I miss is :-( | |||
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You bet Biebs, that's your old 577, what an absolute hammer that rifle is, with a sight regulating load of H-4350, those 26 inch barrels put both 750gr Barnes' out the muzzle for an average of 2076 fps, despite me sprinting a hundred yards and pulling the group 3+ inches left in my haste to shoot quickly, the rifle busts centers, don't know if I had it canted on the sticks or was the 130+ BPM pulse rate partly to blame! ; ] It's a heck of a rifle that I cant wait to try out on Cape Buffalo, I have full faith in both Barnes offerings in this rifle. | |||
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Ive used them on a number of buffalo hunts, and on Hippo, both in .410 and in .411, I can't tell any difference in them from an accuracy standpoint or in performance...Ive shot more than a few buffalo with them. I have never had a complaint with Woodleighs in any caliber, both softs and solids. I shot the 416 Rem, 404 J., and 450-400s, most of my life, before I simi retired..I have boxes of recovered bullets both solid and softs..The 40 caliber 450 gr. woodliegh is one of my all time favorites.Most any solid today will shoot stright line on buffalo, elephant is where some will fail has been my experience.. BTW I recently purchases a couple of hundred Kodiak 250 gr. flat nose softs for my .348 Win mod. 71, they shoot well and are apparantly great for Moose and elk.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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More great information Ray, I appreciate the hands on [been there, done that repeatedly] real world experiences. I have four boxes of the 250gr Kodiaks for my old 1937 M-71 Deluxe 348, those will be shot and hunted with after I get the old heavy jacket 250gr Barnes bullets shot up, I suppose in time, after their both gone, we'll have the excellent 250gr Woodleigh Weldcores to keep our 348's up and running killing all manner of N.A. big game animals. | |||
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I suspect your correct, Woodleighs just work, end of story..I sold my .348 to Cal and my Kodiaks to Ridge..Good bullets, but Woodleighs seem to work as well, at least the 250 gr. does...the bullet thats missed is the Barnes X Hollow POint, that they dropped from production with the sale of barnes bullets.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I've been shooting the 400H&H since 2011 and it has accompanied me on two Safaris and has shot numerous game in North America.. And am a big fan of the CEB 370gr Raptors and 400gr Solids Other usable Solids out there are .411 dia 400gr Northfork Solids and the .410 dia 400gr Woodlieghh Hydrostatic and swift Breakaways One of the problems of using a SN bullet made for the 450-400 such as a Woodliegh is that they are designed to operate between 1800 - 2200 fps a 400H&H can easily push that bullet at 2400fps which is inviting bullet failure at the terminal end.. For proper .411 dia Softs there are 370gr CEB Raptors 360 and 400gr Northfork SS 350 and 400gr A Frames and Barne made a run of 400gr TSX Bullets when Gulf Breeze was trying to get them to commercially load the 400H&H If you are looking for a Plains game load for your 400H&H think about the Barnes 300gr TSX which you can push out of the end of the gun at 2700fps My favorite "varmint" load is a 300gr Hornady SP made for the Win 405 at 2700fps it turns everything into a grey mist If I can be of any help please PM me Good shooting | |||
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My results contradict your post that the 400 gr. Woodleigh softs fail at 2400 FPS, they in fact perform the same at 2400 as they do at 2130 fps has been my experience..I shot them in my 450-400s and in my 404 and 416 rem. on many buffalo and hippo.. I also shot the 450 gr. 40 caliber Woodleighs and had a small part in their production with Geoff. I shot buffalo and sent detailed reports in to Geoff and had a part in their design, Geoff liked the PP and I wanted the RN, so he produced both and in the end his PP was the proper bullet in most cases..The RN did serve as a herd shooting bullet as its penetration was a tad less and it expanded to golf ball size on one bull..It was a killer for sure... That said, comparing DG bullets today is almost a waste of time, they all work as far as I can tell, but that has not always been the case going back a number of years when failure was fairl common...Partitions, glue, and/or monolithic bullets solved all those problems.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray perhaps I stand corrected ... When doing research on this cartridge I was informed that Woodleigh produced a special run of .411 dia bullets with a Jacket of proper thickness to perform at it's published velocities of 2400fps..(actually H&H loaded to 2350fps) for Wolfgang Romey who was loading 400H&H cartridges for H&H .... Looking at the Woodleigh Web site today the published velocities for the .410 dia bullet and a .411 dia bullet is 1800-2200fps While the 416 and the 404 velocities are published to 2400fps .... | |||
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I don't doubt that, He may have, but the Woodleighs I used worked well indeed and that was sometime back, changes may have taken place..but a lot depends on the copper used and so fourth..Ive seen bullets blow up on ocassion, then for no reason that I know of start working again,particularly factory ammo and for whatever reason, there is a lot more to it than jacket thickness as there seems to be a difference in the run in some cases with no known changes Ive been told... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The 400 H&H is an appealing cartridge. Maybe an all-around African cartridge with a bit mor power than the .375 H&H. Woodleigh is a great company to deal with - responsive and engaged. AT | |||
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Ray, Zephyr and Alec Torres, many Thanks for all the advice, experiences and opinions, I appreciate it, I've already been to Tanzania and back with the 400 H&H, it done a spectacular job, wound up using the 400gr A Frame load and BBW #13 solids, couldn't order anymore Woodleigh solids for the hunt after testing, I sometimes get carried away and shoot too damn much, all the while thinking that back order will come through in time. With the 400 H&H, 400gr A Frames at 2400 fps and a 1.5-5 Leupold in QD rings, I took: Gold Medal Waterbuck at 218 yards off sticks. Warthog at 168 yards off sticks. Bedded Lichtenstein Hartebeest bull at 228 yards, prone with elbows in dirt. Giant old Zebra stallion at 277 yards, prone with elbows in dirt. Last but not least, and please don't laugh because the cow farmer shop bench redneck came out on this one, beautiful Leopard at 70 yards with homemade A Frame hollow point, he was dead before his paws left the limb. I filed the semi spitzer lead tip of the A Frame flat, hit the flat with a center punch, used an eighth inch bit and drilled 1/4 inch deep holes, I made up 20 of those for testing, brought 5 along on the hunt, used one for the cat, my first Leopard, but figured a heavy medium bore at mild velocity with a tough bullets like the 400gr A Frame needed a little help for quicker expansion on like thin skinned game, it worked beautifully, I wanted the thing dead at the base of the tree. | |||
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Jerry, I have had good luck on large game (Cape buffalo, elephant, hippo) with 500 grain Woodleigh solids in .458" diameter, and 600 grain Woodleigh solids in .510" diameter. All penetrated straight and deeply enough to kill on all of these animals. I had complete broadside penetration on buffalo multiple times. I wouldn't hesitate to use Woodleigh solids in any of the .40 calibers. They're basically the same bullets, as far as construction is concerned. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Excellent ! Bubba at BB&BMT, Ltd. knows for a fact that you can very easily and quickly get the weight of such a bullet to +/- 0.1 grain by using a hand-chamfering tool such as a primer-hole uniformer. Assuming good concentricity on your starter hole, you will be accurizing those Swift A-Frames, as well as increasing the long-range expansion, and close-range leopard killing tendency. | |||
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You bet RIP, when I got to the bush camp in Tanzania, heard, then [saw] the results of a bad hit on a leopard from a client I was more than a lot glad I did some looking into the quick killing of a leopard with what I had on hand, one of the trackers was severely mauled by a wounded leopard, in fact, he had to leave camp for another scheduled antibiotic shot during the hunt, his hand was bitten clean through in several places and swollen to the size of a small baseball glove.When the 400gr A Frame, now a 380 grain redneck hollow point left my rifle at over 2400 fps, the resounding dead thud of a very DEAD cat hitting the sand under the tree was most satisfying, my PH hollered, DAMN you make my life easy Sir! ; ] | |||
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And Thank You too Michael Robinson, I do load the 400gr Woodleigh solids to 2255 fps in a little 400 Whelen, and 600gr Woodleighs to a very easy 2150 fps in a 505 Gibbs, sounds like to me they're ready for anything, i'll leave them both be, they shoot great and to the express sights on both rifles. | |||
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Woodleigh did come out with a heavier jacket for their .416" (Rigby) and .423" (404) soft point bullets calling these MKII jackets. The respective catalogue #'s were 37A and 33A to distinguish them from the MKI jackets. There is no reference to these new jackets being applied to their solids. The catalogue containing this information is not dated however the first dated catalogue I have listing these heavier jacketed soft points is 2003. Geoff McDonald has had the opportunity to trial his bullets on a multitude of buffalo in Australia so I imagine they are unquestionably as good as it gets for solids and softs for big game if used within the suggested velocity ranges. I have never used his bullets but when shooting buffalo up in the top end of Aussie I was using Norma solids in the ammo they loaded for Parker Hale (the solids made by Norma themselves specifically for the run of PH ammo) and RWS solids in my handloads. Both these 'Kynoch' profiled solids worked perfectly providing one shot kills in every case. The PH ammo had a MV of 2245fps and my reloads similar. I only recovered one RWS solid in the rear hip joint of a big buffalo after it entered at the brisket, everything else was pass throughs. | |||
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I used some 400 gr. Woodleighs in my 404 Jeffreys 26 inch barrel to a tad over 2600 to find a max, I shot tw0 buff with them and hey worked and expanded real well and no exit holes..It was plus max but had no problem, used 4831..cut back to a more reasonable load of 93 grs of 4831 for 2400 give or take 20 fps and much better case life..I won't quote my 2600 fps load as some might run into a bit of trouble with it..the point is the bullets took them in stride as did my gun but keep in mint that was an original 27 inch barrel (the euro fraction) I shot my Searcy double 450-400 at 2250 with a 400 gr. bullet and 2344 for max, same with the Search 470, recoil was grusome to say the least, but hunted iwth them at 2150 for the 450-400 and 2020 for the 470, it al. worked fine. the Searcy is one strong puppy, by far better than my English guns..recoil not pressure was my issue. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .410" 400 gr Woodleigh solid?
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