Shot a M1895 Winchester lever action this afternoon chambered in 405 Win. I shot an entire box of Hornady factory ammunition, 20 shots. That rifle is BRUTAL! My shoulder is black and blue and I bruised after only 7 or 8 shots!

This rifle is the most abusive gun I have ever shot! It is far worse than my 416 Rigby! Anyone else have a similar experience with one of these?

The rifle was shot at 50 yards only from a standing position with support on the off hand. Groups were around 2-3 inches. The magazine was another source of agony, above and beyond the shoulder, as it continually got hung up, and NO IT WAS NOT DUE TO THE RIMS OF THE CASES! At one point we actually thought we were done for the day as we could not get the three rounds in the magazine to "pop" up to feed, nor could we get them out by hand! We ended up "prying" the rounds out and reloading! This time the magazine behaved itself. It did this a few more times, but never as severely! Basically, what happened was this. You pushed the round down into the magazine well, and it did not pop back up against the magazine "lips", but stayed down. No degree of shaking, rattling, talking to, would get the round to "pop" up. You HAD to take a small screwdriver and pry the round up.

This is my idea of a DGR! For the suicidal that is!!

I liked the 405 Winchester round though. I am even more motivated to build a SMLE in 405 Win now than before.

Axel

[ 05-18-2003, 00:59: Message edited by: Axel ]

Axel
A couple of questions.
#1.{a} Do you want a bolt rifle in the 405 Win calibre or{b} just a bolt rifle giving 405 Win performance?

#2.{a} Do you specifically want a "big bore" Enfield, or {b} a big bore bolt rifle but are on a limited budget.

If the answer to both{a} questions is yes...Then go for it. If the answer could be to the {b} questions consider this.
Most of the bolt rifle trash,errr.., I mean experts much prefer the Mauser action over ANY OTHER ACTION ON THE PLANET for a hunting rifle. There are many reasons for this...
So I would recommend the following [Gunmakers on the forum please reply, does this make sense]. There are many Mauser actions/rifles available on the market for a fair price. The 10.75x68 Mauser can be made to properly feed through a Mauser with very little [$$] work. It shoots the same diameter bullets as the 404 Jeffery .423. Standard ballistics are a 347gr. bullet at @2200fps. You could also shoot 300 and even 400gr bullets if you desired. Accessories, barrels, scope mounts, sights, stocks, etc are widely available for Mauser type rifles. All good gunsmiths know how to work on a mauser. In the end you would have a nice Mauser rifle in a very ballistically effective calibre with the proper loads for all of North America for sure. With todays better bullets it would suffice for buff and elephant. A 400gr Woodleigh solid at 450/400 velocities in the tropical load of @ 1900fps has collected many a pound of Ivory.

Just a thought, what do Ya'll think.

My experience is that it kicks pretty good, due to poor stock design. The shotgun butt is the only one to consider on the 95 Winchester. I haven't had the types of feeding problems you had. I guess I've just been lucky. The 405/95 Win combo is certainly not a DGR (well, no more so then a DGR is whatever you happen to have in your hands when DG shows up). I've seen doubles in this caliber though, and I think one of those would be fun. Still not what I would choose for chasing lions, but fun. - Dan

450 NE No2,
I want a 405 Win SMLE just to be different. I believe that I can get the 450/400 3' NE's "tropical" ballastics out of the 405 Win within the SMLE's pressure limits. Otherwise I would just stick with my 416 Rigby. Although, I must admit that I have given serious thought to your suggestion of the 10.75X68 Mauser too!

Dan, the rifle I was shooting was the new one made for Winchester by the Japanese. I believe it has what you call a "shotgun stock". The stock is straight with a flat steel buttplate. It was the bottom of that flat steel buttplate that bruised my shoulder. I think the butt area is just too small, and in this case too hard with that steel plate. At least it wasn't my gun, it belonged to a gentlemen I met at the range, so I am not out anymore than $35 for the box of ammo I bought from the owner. BTW, the owner gave up after 15 rounds his shoulder was bruised to. If anyone is interested, and I ever see this guy again, I think this guy would let this rifle go for a deal.

Axel

Never shot a 405 but my Winchester 1886 Extra Light in 45-70 kicks like there is no tommorrow. That shotgun style steel butt plate jabs the shoulder like being hit by a concerte block. Very few people at our local club could handle a dozen of rounds off the bench with my own hot load. Thanks.

I seem to recall Craig Boddington writing that an 1985 in .405 was one of the hardest kicking guns he's ever fired, bar none.

I think the severe recoil generated by the 405 Winchester has to do with rifle more than anything else. I am sure if you put the 405 Winchester in a bolt action with a good recoil pad, it will become a pusscat instantly. The same is true with a bolt action cartridge. If the 416 Rigby or 458 Winchester were chambered in a lightweight Winchester lever action with a steel butt plate, it would be a nightmare to shoot. Thanks.

You are correct Axel, the flat butt plate is considered a shotgun butt. You really need a recoil pad on this gun, though. It kicks a lot for just a 300 gr bullet at 2200 fps, as mentioned, in a well designed bolt gun it wouldn't be nearly as bad. I've never seen one done in a SMLE, but I've seen SMLE's in 45-70, and they kicked pretty good too. The worst recoil at this level I've tried was a 405/95 Win with the crescent butt stock. Serious ouch! FWIW - Dan

Axel-PLease take the butt and hold it to your head! You know German style! BUTT TO BUTT HEAD! Pull the trigger! You will feel Sooo Much Better!!!! So will we!

Axel- Did you have a headache after shooting that monster?

DD, NO it did not, but my shoulder is badly bruised!!! Perhaps if I try 470nitros shooting technique I will develop a BAD headache!

470Nitro, or should I call you Scott Sweet since you sound so very much like him! You make comments about me being weak because I could not handle the recoil of the 405 Win. I find this disturbing since you were at the range yesterday also, and could only handle 4 rounds before you had to stop because you had "serious" shooting to do!! I noticed that your "serious" shooting was about 20 rounds from your AR15! I think your shoulder must have hurt pretty bad if you could only handle 20 rounds of 5.56 Nato!!! Who is WEAK!

Axel

the 450 marlin, in a guide gun, with the ports closed (set screws and tig welded)... and 350's at 2150...

THAT sucks for recoil.... and will be you flinch.

jeffe

Axel-seems like you have issues about being weak?

DD, not really, but at lease I DO NOT get headaches from shooting my rifles!!

Axel

Coming home from the range with a headache has meant you have had big fun

This is like hearing a 12 year old talk about the first Playboy magazine that he ever saw.

Axel,
I fired one of the new 95's recently and for once in my life have to agree with you. The recoil is hideous. The damn thing makes my .470 feel like a pussycat. Oh and yes it did give me a headache come to think of it.
Andy

Axel,
so you are going to be throwing a 400 grain bullet at 1950 FPS in the 405?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rather then the name calling, I am more interested in the rifle and it's problems. Were you shooting a "new" model 1895 or was it one of the original Winchester 95's? I own several original model 95's includeing a 405 and have never had any feeding problems with them. I even use spitzer bullets in my .30-06 chambered rifles (one takedown and one solid frame) and in my musket chambered for the 7.62X54 R. Makes me wonder if the magazine was just stiff from being new or maybe dirty inside or maybe squeezed at sometime causeing interference with the magazine follower.

Rusty, that is the hope, but in a PROPERLY stocked SMLE.

Iroquois Scout, the rifle was brand new. The gentleman that owned it had brought it out to the range for it's maiden voyage. I noticed it and went to investigate. Anyway, I bought a box of ammo from him and we started to shoot. The magazine feeding issues did seem to get better with time. So the sticky magazine my have been due to being new rather than a design issue.

Axel