1: the "rebated" rim on the steyr is a myth...

2: in the springfield, without a LOT of work, the 411 hawk will be the quickest

3: the 416 taylor would be a great fit

4: the 376 would require a spacer, perhaps

5: what's wrong with a 375 whelen?

jeffe

I am considering building up my first dangerous game rifle. I plan on using a standard length action which will limit my choices considerably.

I am considering the 376 Steyr, 375 Hawk/Scovile, 375 Taylor, 411 Hawk, and 416 Taylor.

I plan on using an old Springfield 03A3 action I have and want to use the rifle for Africa, and big Alaskan Brown Bears. Obviously, in this case the Hawk chamberings hold some intrest since they would require the least amount of action work. But are they really going to give me the performance I am looking for. Basically I want 375 H&H performance from a standard length action. I am also looking for manageable recoil. Up to now I have fired 30-06, 300 Win Mag, .50 Muzzle loaders with 120 grain charges, and 3" 12 slugs. How do they compare?

Can anyone point me in the right direction to getting more data on the above cartidges?

Any opinions?

Will the rebated rim on the 376 Steyr be a problem?

I am in the data collection phase at present.

Thanks

Yep, the 9.3x62 would be a good choice.


54JNoll,

In case you're not familiar with the 9.3x62 (and a lot of Americans aren't) here's a link with some good info and background about the cartridge:

http://www.african-hunter.com/the_9_3_x_62_mauser.htm

-Bob F.

500 grains,

Yes the 9.3 would be a good choice and is legal in many parts of Africa, but I do not think it is legal in all of Africa.

That was the only reason it was left off the list. I am looking for one rifle legal everywhere.

Jeffe,

Nothing really wrong with the 375 (38) Whelan. I did not include it as there seems to be some conflicting info on it.

I guess that really gets down to the biggest issue ... separating fact from fiction.

Is the 375 Whelan really going to give me the performance I am looking for?

What reloading manuals would you suggest I get? Currently most of my reloading has been for pistol and my loading library is setup accordingly resulting in little data in this area.

The 375 Whelen, in my experience, was not up to snuff. I chronographed my loads with 270 and 300 grain bullets. A bit over 2200 fps with the 270 grainer and not quite 2000 fps with the 300. Too much bullet, too little case. I was talking with Savage99 about a 375 improved his friend owns. Chronographed the 270 at 2350 and the 300 at 2100. Still a bit anemic to me. The 416 Talor would offer plenty of gee whiz though.

It sounds like using that Springfield action is the priority, and if that's so, I think you're boxing yourself into a corner because of it, at least in this case and given many of your objectives.

I think that it's a mistake to go with a wildcat cartridge for any expensive hunt that's far from home, especially for dangerous game. I also think that the virtues of a standard, .30-06-length action are vastly overrated for that sort of use. I never build a rifle or select an action for an important-use rifle based upon what I happen to have at home. I select a cartridge, then select an action based upon that decision.

I also think that a Model 70 action is much more suitable for a modern custom rifle for dangerous game use than an '03 Springfield. You can save yourself all kinds of headaches and gain many advantages if you simply buy a Model 70 in .375 H&H (or 7mm STW or .300 WBY., etc.) and use that action as the foundation for a custom rifle in .375 H&H or .416 Remington.

Save your Springfield action for something like a custom .30-06.....

AD

The best cartridge has not even been mentioned yet!

The 9.3 x 63mm will feed perfectly out of your Springfield and will be legal for hunting DG in Zimbabwe. In addition, there is factory ammo for the 9.3 in Zimbabwe.

How does 320 grains at 2300 fps or 286 grains at 2450 fps sound?


Both Lapua and Norma make quality 9.3 brass, and Redding makes 9.3 dies.

First choice would be the 9.3x62, second choice would be the .416 Taylor.

I decided on the 416 taylor on a stainless mkII ruger action. Worked out great plenty of bunch easy to load for. No worrys about being to small A 400 gr at 2300plus 350s in the mid 2400s. Just a good all around big bore.

Roger,

You hit directly on my biggest issue. All I realy have to go on is the stuff people report on the various chamberings. Hawk cartriges also use 06 brass, cylindrical brass necked down giving wider shoulder dimensions. They claim more impressive figures. Now this may be as a means to sell their product line. You have some experience on a near twin and have a vastly different view. Not only do I want to cover the legal caliber issues but also have similar performance. No point in having the bore size if it won't do what I need it or want it to do.

This is why I am tending to lean towards the .411 Hawk and 416 Taylor. The Styer in still in the running though.

I guess in the end all I can do is chose and find out for myself. Although choosing wrong can be expensive and potentially dangerous.

Hopefully in the end it will be an informed decision and to that end practical experience counts a lot.

Thanks

Not to disrespect what you are hearing about the Hawk. I honestly can't say from experience, but there is only so much volume to the '06 case. Additional speed comes at the cost of higher pressures.
Just my opinion.

Alan,

Thanks for the input. Already have a Springfield being made into a 30-06.

Now, is the 9.3 accepted in enough countries that I would not be boxing myself in (so to speak) if I go that route. Everything in life is a compromise. If the 9.3 really does not limit me as to where I can go or what I can hunt (to any great degree) than it become viable. If it does limit me to a large degree than I have placed myself into two boxes. Have I not?

I agree with Allen 100%.
A Dangerous Game Rifle is NO place to scrimp or save money.
I also do not think a wildcat is a good idea for a DGR. If you are using an original rifle in an orginal caliber then the hassle with ammo is OK IMHO. But there is no sense in putting up with it in a new made rifle. I would pick one of the 416's, get a suitable actiion [some kind of Mauser type] and start from there.
As Allen says, save the Springfield for a 30-06 or a 35 Whelen.

If money is the big issue get a CZ for 600 clams and restock it if you feel you have to. Trick it out a bit as necessary. If money is a huge issue maybe hunting DG is not a necessity for you. Most DG hunts cost more than all but the most expensive custom guns. The 3006 length is not the best for a DGR. A 375 or 416 come right out of the box. No complicated opening this and polishing that just so ammo will fit in the magazine. Ammo is available if not cheap. Just MHO. Good hunting. "D"

Since Mr. Day opened up the field, I would suggest this:

IF it was about money I would buy a CZ, Winchester, or Ruger in 375 and be done with it ... and I still may.

Lets see the 376 Steyr is a factory round so no ammo fuss there. Lets also consider that the 416 Taylor is a necked down 458 Win Mag. So it would be conceivable that it too would fit and would be a "Factory" chambering; although, admittedly, it is more than I was looking for. Many many DGR rifles have been built on standard length actions. The 404 Jeffery can be made to fit as can some larger rounds too.

Lets also consider that it might be prudent to sned your new factory DGR out to a very component smith to slick up the feed rails and feeding in general anyway.

Lets see ... if I bought an original Griffin and Howe chambered in 400 Whelan than it would be OK to load for it and take it hunting as a DGR but it is some not OK to build one? I guess I do not quite understand that one. We may just have to agree to disagree there. Also a Springfield is "some kind of Mauser type" action. The US tried unsuccessfully to get around Mauser's patents in building the Springfield and ended up paying royalties to continue production. This one has already been sporterized so I am not "destrying American Histroy" as some scream.

I do not understand why it would be OK to built a big bore off of a Mauser 98 but not the Springfield.

I have yet to loose my ammo on out of state/country hunts/trips. I guess some day it could and will happen and I may regret a wildcat or less common chambering.

I guess I will post something to this effect on the African board to get another perspective. Perhaps it can give me further insight to the fesibility of of the 9.3 and what kind of hunting oppertunities it does or does not limit me from.

To be honest, it sounds like you're a whole lot more interested in some sort of romance angle surrounding the 1903 Springfield action than you are about building a serious dangerous game rifle.

Functionally, the Springfield is inferior to the Mauser 98 from just about every standpoint of consideration, and it is also inferior to the Model 70. You can do a whole lot more to either of these actions than you can a Springfield, and you'd end up with a superior end-product that can more easily and safely digest and function with true dangerous game cartridges.

Since I'm letting my hair down, I would also consider any psuedo dangerous game cartridge based on the .30-06 case to be a pretty skimpy adapation for true dangerous game use, and for the sake of what?

AD

One thing you've got to consider as far as DG wildcats is that, from what I've read, if you take ammo to Africa, the headstamp on the catridges must match your rifle. I do think you can get .416 Taylor brass http://www.a-squarecompany.com/ but it is probably not on a shelf somewhere. From what I can tell, the 9.3x62 is legal for DG just about anywhere except in Tanzania and certain provinces in RSA and ammo there should be plentiful.

My .375 H&H Model 70 is due to arrive any day now, I can't wait . And, I can find ammo even at Academy if I need it.

My post from the African Big Game Hunting forum where 54JNoll also posted:


54JNoll,

Allen gives good advice. Also, I think you're over thinking this and agonizing over your decision too much. There are going to be pros and cons with any cartridge you choose. Insisting upon using the '03 action limits your choices. No one cartridge will be perfect for every possible use. Many posters on the Big Bores forum suggested several good cartridge choices. In the end, you will have to make the decision as to which cartridge to use. I would respectfully suggest that you do some more reading up on the different cartridges. Get Craig Boddington's Safari Rifles and Gregor Wood's Rifles for Africa if you don't have these books already.

Quote:

---

Essentially I want to build a rifle to hunt dangerous game with. I want to use a standard length action and achieve performance levels similar to the 375 H&H Mag.< !--color-->

---

That pretty much says 9.3x62. It fits the 30-06 size action (length and bolt face); it's available in factory ammo (especially in Europe and Africa); it is close to the .375 H&H in power and effectiveness; and good bullets and cases are available for handloading. Plus it is legal for most any dangerous game hunting you are likely to do.

Also, don't get too hung up on this "legal in Africa for dangerous game" business. No, I'm not advocating breaking any country's laws. I'm just saying be practical about it. How many Cape Buff, Elephants, and Rhino are you really planning on hunting? Don't let a theoretical "someday; maybe" limit you too much in your cartridge choice.

Just my 2 cents worth...
-Bob F.

Great, I do not have those books yet. I expect they may help. And yes I am probably trying to overanalyze the cartridge choice.

Thanks

Wouldn't the 416 Remington be a better choice than the 416 Taylor?

Yes, if it would fit. Will it?

Yes the 416 or the 375 Holland will fit, and can be openned up in the rear with aboutr a hundred thou off the feed ramp, and thats not going to hurt anything, but be sure its done by the right gunsmith, like John Ricks or Dennis Olson, they do that kind of work real well....

These two are much more practical choices than any wildcat that you may not be allowed in some countries with and the laws seem to get stricter every year...

The 9.3x62 may not be exactly legal in Tanzania and a couple of places in RSA but no one would ever question you on that score...Africans being a practical and logical lot don't fret over such trivial regulations...It is legal in Zimbabwe with a handload that produces 3900 lbs. but no one there is counting or pulling bullets either...It is used a good deal in all thoes countries...I personally would not concern myself with that...I have used it a great deal in all three countries. A number of folks are using 9.3x74 doubles in Tanzania these days, as they are more afordable..

If you really want big bore, DGR performance in a small package, my vote goes for the 416 Taylor.

No offence to the other great cartridges, but a 400 gr bullet at 2350 fps really has a lot going for it.

I love the 9.3x62 and think that it is perfectly suitable for your needs, but the fact is that it really is closer to the 35 Whelen than it is to the 375 H&H. Not that there is anything wrong with that! IMHO, with the 416 Taylor, however, you will not be left wanting for stopping power, unless you get yourself into a situation that it would take a real cannon to shoot your way out of. It speaks with an authority that the standard medium bores do not.

Of course, because it is a wildcat, you would have to be willing to take the chance that you could be left wanting...your lost ammunition!

Cheers,
Canuck

Ray,

Thanks for that input. It gives me some more practical options worth exploring. Non-wildcat rounds have several benefits too. I did not think the 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag would fit.

I was thinking last night about building the O3 into a 9.3X62 and getting a .375 or .416 later if I still felt the "need". I can certainly see a niche for it. The 9.3 will be great for my Alaskan hunting when that comes about. It would also be a nice increase in power over my 30-06 for some of the larger African plains game without jumping all the way to the .375 or .416. This would relogate the .375 or .416 specifically to the really large dangerous stuff.

Well just more to think about and I have lots of time to do that.

In the mean time it looks like I have some reading to do.