Hi Guys:

I was roaming around the Harrisburg show last week and came accross a Kreighoff Dealer. The new Classic Double Rifle in .500/416 caliber was really beautiful.

First question, where the hell they come up with a .500/416 caliber, is this a wildcat? I know it is a 500 NE necked down to .416.... sounds great to me, but I never heard of it before.

Second, the price seemed very reasonable for a brand new double...$8600.00 now I know this is a German double, not a British double BUT I hear the workmanship on the Kreighoff is outstanding.

The only thing I may have some concerns with is the thumb cocker..??? I didn't have a lot of time at the show, I presuume you can decock the rifle after you cock it and don't shoot?

I would like to hear some impressions of the Kreighoff rifles themselves.

Thanks... Jim P

[ 02-24-2003, 21:46: Message edited by: PAHunter ]

Hi Jim,

No, it's not a wildcat. It's a proprietary round that Krieghoff developed. It's supposed to offer .416 Rigby performance in a double rifle (where rimmed cases extract best).

It's been around for a few years now, but they only advertise in high-end magazines, like Safari, Sporting Classics, et al.

Krieghoffs are well-made, but I don't think they will appreciate in value like the English doubles do. Think of it as a shooter, rather than as an investment.

You are correct, the gun can be cocked and de-cocked by the thumb cocker.

George

Jim P. I own one. Love it. Let me know if you have any questions.
peter.

Jim P.,

You can get a new 500/416 from Butch Searcy for less than $8600 and it will be built to fit you. Butch told me the 500/416 is the most versatile double rifle cartridge on the market. Anyway, he's great to do business with and will handle any repairs or problems you might encounter with one of his rifles. I had a 470 he built for me and it was great. I think his website is:

www.searcyent.com

He will also answer whatever ?'s you might have if you want to visit with him on the phone.

Good Hunting,

PAHunter,

You might check with Rich Kaysa in San Antonio a Kreighoff dealer. Give him a call 210-308-0663.

My friend Ted in SA order a 500/416 with the sight upgrade and he said it was well worth it. He swatted several animals on his trip 2 years ago.

You should be able to get you a made to order rifle for around $8,600

In my opine, as soon as enough people start using the 500/416 it will become the standard all around chambering for a double rifle. It isn't a stopper, but you get a great long 400 grain .416 bullet that penetrates! All that and a low pressure flanged round for a double rifle! You would be well served with a 500/416!

Please let us know what you get!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 02-25-2003, 00:49: Message edited by: Rusty ]

Peter please give us some more info on your
500/416K. My friend is "in need" of a double and that may be what I recommend to him. How many times have you shot it, and do you shoot reloads?
Is it scoped?
Rusty wooooOOOOHHHoooo[twilight zone music] I just got off the phone with Rich Kaysa.[ I got his card at the Safari show]. He sure seems lika anice fellow. He has a 375H&H in stock. We talked about the "alleged" [I say alleged because I have yet to talk to anyone with first hand knowledge] extraction problems. He is going to contact the people he had sold H&H's to and get their feed back on any problems.
It would really be nice if with these modern rifles we could the a 375 H&H that was reliable, after all that is why there is a belt on the case in the first place.

Tony,

I got the number from Mark when I read this thread. thought that Rich might be willing to deal?

As far as the .375 H&H double goes, I'm sure the extraction/ejection would be OK. I just don't know if I'm ready for double in that caliber? You know if you did buy that rifle, you probably could get an extra set of barrels in another caliber?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty, we discussed other bbls, rifle and shotgun [20ga] and he said the rifle would have to be sent back or [much better] ordered that way.
I would still like to hear from someone who has a double for a rimless round.

Hi Guys:

As usual, thanks for all the advice. I love my custom 416 Rem Mag, and think the .500/416 would be a natural.

I will check out Butch Searcys web site, I heard a lot about him.

My PH in Africa had a Kreighoff in 500 NE last year. On the client before me he had to go in after a wounded Buff. The Buff came at him in the high grass from the side. He ran part ways up an ant hill, turned and fired, dam lucky he lived to tell the tale....

The more I listen to you guys, the more doubles I see, the more I fall in love with them. But the warden would definitely lock me up, if she knew how much they cost....LOL

I love the engraving on the sides of the Buff and Lion.

Thanks.... Jim P.

[ 02-25-2003, 08:22: Message edited by: PAHunter ]

PAHunter. I know double rifles are expensive....
but how much is your life worth.
But you are right, you might want to keep the price secret form the "warden". If she finds out she might want to send you to Africa with a bolt action.... and spend the extra money on a "piece of the rock" ie. a BIG life insurance policy.

Re rimless cartridges in doubles, have owned two, both Westley Richards which have an extractor that grabs a good chunk of the extraction groove, much more than in the German made rimless doubles. One was a .318, no trouble with it. The other a droplock .375 H&H with popup peep sight, a superlative cased rifle mint condition would bring over 50g today. Would not group American ammo worth a doggone. When handloaded we got it to group well enough but had to push the loads up to where the cases often stuck. Was OK with the little Kynoch we had to try in it. So even the W/R, which has by far the best extractors for rimless, can give trouble.

By the way, a question for you Krieghoof fans, is the 500/416 any better than a good old 450/400?

vigillinus Thanks for the info. From your remarks about the 375, as long as the loads were not over pressure extraction was not a problem.
Did you ever get to hunt with the 318WR?
While the 500/416 may have more velocity, I have been very happy with my 450/400 3 1/4 Nitro Express Magnum. With it I have taken deer, many wild pigs, 2 caribou and a black bear. You very seldom hear any complaints about the 400 Nitro's.
I think the choice should be decided by whether you want a British rifle or a new rifle. Either calibre is an excellent choice.

[ 02-25-2003, 13:10: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

I prefer the 450/400 3 inch because it has less recoil than the 500/416. I've become a bit recoil sensitive at my age and I don't feel like I'm getting beat up with my 450/400. As I have said before, it offers a long .408 400 grain bullet at tropical loading (1950fps). In a 10 lb rifle it very comfortable to shoot and carry.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

guns were made for shooting not for appreciating in value when you buy a new krieghoff etc your running a new one in not wearing an old one out ,at least you get a warranty ,and some peace of mind the world could end toomorrow so why worry about investment value ,buy it ,use it ,enjoy it,

NE 450 NO 2, I have shot maybe 100 rounds through it. Most of them reloads. I shoot Hornady for practice (400gr. Sp) and Woodleigh SP and FMJ (410's) for load development. But my favorite solid is the GS 380 FN. The gun is still "tight" ie. doesn't "fall open". If you want to talk on the phone, we can certainly do that. I bought mine slightly used from Hallowell &Co.
Peter.

I would say the Krieghoff is the best "factory" made german double rifle. It is the one with the best reputation here in europe. The competitors are Merkel and perhaps Blazer (probably not).

This is my oppinion on the matter, I have no experience with a double whatsoever....

If I had the monney I would wery much like to have a Krieghoff double in 470 or bigger.

Gentelmen, any well made double rifle, regardless of chambering, is only as good as the man driveing it! Haveing said that, the configuration, and features built into the rifle are all good for something. The features that would be good on a double rifle used for hunting coyotes, like a 218 bee, 22 hornet, or even the 222 Rem Mag (a rimless), would not normally have the same features on a rifle designed to hunt Buffalo, and Elephant. I think we can all agree on that fact.

There are some things that are not good in a classic S/S double rifle. The most damageing one is high chamber pressure. Cartridges that develope high pressuers, though factory made for it, will shoot the rifle loose far sooner than a cartridge that produces lower pressures. The design is basicly 19th century thechnology, regardless of if it is new or not, and must be treated as such. There is a reason those old Britt doubles are still shooting and working fine today though they may be 100 yrs old. The three reasons most of them are still sound are, #1 low pressure, #2 flanged cartridges, being well served by heavy extractors, and the man behind the rifle careing for it properly, and being more driven by results, than the high numbers that we seem to be addicted to today.

The double rifles first chambered for the large high pressure cartridges, were so chambered, because the old NE rounds were no longer available. We didn't have powders that would duplicate the performance, of cordite in the large cases of the NE rounds, or the know how to do it with what we did have. If the makers were to sell doubles, at all, they had to chamber them for the DGR cartridges that were available(458 WM, and 375 H&H). Most hunters of large game did not understand the weaknesses of the design, so bought them. Most had problems with them in one way or another. This started the death Knell of the double rifle. Most of those made in the mid fifties, are now either re-chambered, and re-regulated for rimmed, NE rounds that are now available, or in the wall hanger status.

Contrary to popular belief the belt was installed on the old 375 H&H flanged case, which was made heavily tapered,for easy extraction, and head spaced on the rim, so it would work in a bolt rifle. It could retain the taper, and head space on the belt, rather than a shoulder, but feed better than a rimmed case in a bolt action. The 375 H&H for double rifles was made with a flange,and preceded the belted round, and loaded to lower pressure.

The problem with a rimless cartridge in a double rifle is not as much a problem in a rifle designed for hunting deer, as it is where used to defend ones life against an animal who takes exception to your being in his fight zone! The chambering of rounds after the ejection of the first two case, in a fight, will some times hang on the belt, and not go over the extractor, leaving a round too far out of the chamber, to catch on the fence on closeing, bending the cartridge and preventing the closeing of the rifle, till the bent round is extracted, and a new one in it's place. All this while a Buffalo is comeing over to discuss the matter. If the head of that cartridge does make it past the fence, it may be forced in the chamber, by the rappid closeing, hard enough to break off the thin little spring loaded extractor,or ride over the extractor, getting behind the extractor, also locking the rifle up. The whole idea of a double rifle for dangerous game is rock solid reliability, and to add anything that has potentual to cause a loss of the reliability, is, to me, insane!

Krieghoff was wise in designing the 500/416K, rather than chamber the 416 Rigby. Merkel should have done the same thing, with the 375 H&H FL, and 500/416K, rather than the 375 H&H Belted, and the 416 Rigby. The 500/416K is,IMO, one of the best new cartridges to come off the design table in fifty years for use on dangerous game in a double rifle! I'm not sold on the cocking system on their rifle, however!

Krieghoff used to chamber the .416 Rigby, .375 H&H and .458 WinMag in their doubles, like many other makers catering to us masses . Krieghoff got smart and developed the new rimmed round, the 500/.416 Nitro Express. Some of the other makers are still trying to get rid of their inventory of .416 Rigby and .375 H&H and even .458 WinMag double rifles. Only a sucker would buy one of those of any make.

JIM,

Hi! I shot Zane's .500 NE the day that we sighted in. I thought that it felt like as well as recoiled like a full sized 20 ga. with magnum loads. I was plesantly surprised. He did let it get into poor condition by putting it in a gun case while moist and also not wiping it down. I recommended that he send it back to Kreighoff to be refinished though. I also left him a "Marine Tuff Cloth" to wipe it with every day.

BTW, I have a bullet to send to you that Hamish used. It was out of the ones that I took there to him from you. I've e-mailed you but no response. Get up with me. I've misplaced your address.

Cheers,

SAM

The Krieghoff doubles do not fit me at all. The action is too long and the stock to straight, the gun does not handle like a real double..The cocking safty is a accident looking for a place to happen, so will never own one...The English guns fit me..and my Jefferys is perfection for me.

If I ever get another double it will be a 500/416 as I think that is the ultimate double rifle caliber....I will have Butch Searcy make it and use the specs of my present double...I also like the feel and look of the william O. Douglas rifles but know little about them...

I did look at a 500 Jefferys by Jefferys Rifle Co. today made by the Jeffery firm now operating in Calif..It was a bolt gun.

It was a really nice gun over all...The metal finish was a little rough and the welded up square bridge had a few welding pits in it..It fed slicker n goose grease and the stock work was the best I have ever seen on a commercial Mauser..It was on a std. 98 action. and I think they run about $6000 plus... I'm wondering if they are producing doubles.

Hi Big Sam:

Damn it, took you long enough to get back in touch. Email me and tell me all about your hunt!

Yeah, Zayne let that pretty double get some rust on it. That is where I first got to handle a Kreighoff. Duh.... did he tell you about my Buff?

Both Wayne and Zayne were supposed to be at SCI convention in Vegas, but only Wayne made it, and even his plans got screwed up. Pano & Adam were there, heard they had a wild time.

My trophies should be arriving any day now, I have my taxi all set and waiting.

I had one of the solid bullets, a Barnes, in my shirt pocket as a momentous, but they took it off me when going through customs to board the plane.

I am trying to put together a hunt for 04. I still have Big Brown Bear on my brain, but the prices are outrageous.

Tell me about your hunt....email me
@ Stallion43@aol.com

Jim P.

Hi Ray:

Please elaborate on the quote "The Safety Cocking device is an accident waiting to happen" Why is that????

By the way, I saw some mounts from Alaska that a guy from PA shot who booked with you.

One was a BEAUTIFUL brown bear, I have to drop you a line and find out about a brownie hunt that won't break the bank.

Now elaborate on that double banger for me...

Jim P.

Hi Mac:

That was interesting, thanks for all the info on doubles.

Jim P.

[ 02-26-2003, 08:46: Message edited by: PAHunter ]

NE 450 No. 2:

I know Rich Kaysa and he is nice guy to do business with - shotgun guy though. I've also seen the .375 belted rimless he has in stock and seem to remember that it has a reasonably nice piece of wood.

Ted bought his Classic from him which is a standard rifle in .500/.416. He has since added .375 Flanged Magnum, 7 X 65R, and 20 gauge barrels, all at different times. Yes, it had to go back to Kreighoff USA each time. All barrel sets seem equally well fitted. Accuracy with the rifle barrels is outstanding. The .416 is surprisingly comfortable to shoot and the .375 feels like an '06. Although I'm not a great fan of the Kreighoff, there is a lot to like.

It does swing like a creosote post though. Having used it a fair bit, I have to agree with Ray about the safety also.
--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Big Sam, I sent you an email regarding the Barnes bullet from Hammish. Bob.

I agree with GeorgeS. They are nice guns and are built well. They won't appreciate at all but if you like the gun thats all that matters. Also take a look at the Blaser double rifle. Blaser was recently purchased by Sig Arms and you know how fussy Sig is about their products. I palyed with the Blaser double At the Safari Club Convention in Reno and it was a very decent rifle.Just like the Krieghoff, it does not have ejectors and they do not use a wedge to regulate the rifle! If you need it regulated, you send it to their facility in the US and they will regulate it for free.

Dave

400 Nitro
That Krieghoff your friend has sounds like the ideal traveling rifle. Especially since the airlines have a wall-eyed fit if you have more than two long guns in one case.