The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .444 vs. .45-70 pressuresGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
I re-read you post a couple times and still not sure axactly what you are going after. The 30k CUP level is for the modern Marlin 1895 action and the 1886 action but I think it is not supported by the gun makers. The 45-70 is also offered in Ruger No 1 among other single shot rifles. These single shot actions usually can take a higher pressure load than the Marlin 1895. However, there is nothing to support loads beyond 20k CUP level due to the older Trapdoor rifles. This means that you are pretty much on your own if you load the 45-70 based on most new reloading data. Later! | |||
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| <333-OKH> |
Daryl; I grabbed the closest reloading book, Speer #13. According to them industry pressure standard for 444 Marlin is 44,000 cup. 45-70 industry pressure standard 28,000 cup and that is as high as Speer recommends for Marlin 1985's. Only in the section for Bolt actions and single shots do they mention loads that reach 35,000 cup. According to the Barnes book, Hornady once published loads that went to 50,000 cup for the 45-70 in the Ruger #1. What you will find in the published loading data is a very conservative upper limit as they know that some damn fool is going to blow up a gun and sue them. If their loads err on the low side they are safer in court and truth be told, the gains in velocity in the 45-70 are not that great with the added pressure. The gun will handle 44,000 cup but in 45-70 the industry standard is 28,000 and they are going to let you walk on the wild side alone. I load my 45-70 to moderate velocities and pressure as I really don't feel a need to hotrod it as I have plenty of other guns to handle the longer range shots and the 45 cal bullet doesn't need great velocity to do serious damage. My 45-70 is a Siamese Mauser, which if I wished would take loads approaching the 458 Mag. As it is never going to Africa my choice is to not push the envelope, but if you do the loading info is out there. Get all the books and surf the net, the truth is out there. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
You can load the 444 and the 45-70 to the same pressure levels in the Marlin 1895's that were manufactured after 1973. Afterall, it is the action that you are loading for, not the cartridge. ------------------ | |||
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| <Daryl Elder> |
I guess it wasn't clear, but that was my point/observation; although used in identical actions, the 45-70 isn't loaded to the same pressures as the .444 by factory ammo makers (for obvious reasons) nor by powder or bullet manufacturers. I concur that the gains may be little in the .45-70 and that I, too, have bigger hammers, but it is still curious to see published data for the .45-70 running at less pressure than the .444 and I didn't know if there was some other reason; I think the brass will handle the pressure, no? | ||
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| one of us |
28k CUP can destroy a Trapdoor very quickly. I still don't know how did they derive this pressure level for the 45-70. Safe shooting and have fun guys. Cheers! Ming | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
I have a Hornady manual wherein some of their data for the Ruger No. 1 is at the 50,000 CUP level!! Two of their 350 grain loads give 2200 feet per second. ("As tested in the Hornady lab.") | ||
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| one of us |
Some of you guys are forgetting the bolt thrust factor . There is a limit to the amount of bolt thrust the Marlin action will handle , and you will get there at a lower gross chamber pressure quicker with the .45 cal. than the .444 , due to the bigger width of the case ..........so -----you cannot load both cartridges to the same pressure in the Marlin action , the .45/70 will need to be kept at a somewhat lower level ......... | |||
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| one of us |
gunslinger, the 450 Marlin has just as much bolt thrust as the 45-70, but it works just fine at the 45,000 PSI levels in the Marlin. I have used the Marlin 1895 for several years, since about 1981 to be exact. Load that 45-70 up to the same pressures as the 444 and it will do just fine. Loading the 45-70 to the same pressures as the 444 will not increase the bolt thrust enough to harm anything. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Allen If you can load the 45/70 Marlin to 45 000 , then the .444 could be loaded somewhat hotter........ I was under the impression that the .450 basically duplicated what handloaders have been doing with the 45/70 for years , if so I doubt that it is loaded any hotter than the 30000 area that many have been using for the older cartridge........
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| one of us |
Concerning factory ammo, Buffalo Bore Ammo is loaded to about 42,000-43,000, for their 45-70 ammo. Garrett's is somewhat less, in the low to mid 30's, if I remember right. My Hornady book has loads for the Marlin 1895 at 40,000. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| <Daryl Elder> |
Rusty Gunn, my old Hornady manual doesn't show the pressures. It does divide the .45-70 into the Trapdoor, 1895 and Ruger #1. The manuals I have that show pressures run the 1895 loads to a max. of about 28k CUP. Time to update my collection of manuals, I guess! Shhhhh... don't tell my wife!  Thanks for the info and replies everyone. | ||
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| one of us |
What the Hornady does say, concerning loads for the 1895 Marlin, is "Pressures are held to 40,000 cup maximum." None of the loads show specific pressure, just that they are held to 40,000 (or less). ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| one of us |
I wonder just how much horsepower some folks are milking out of the 45/70 Marlins ? For instance , Lyman #47 lists some loads that go over 2000 fps with 405 gr bullets ; at only 37000 cup . Yet they say to limit those loads to Ruger #1 s only ? That kind of speed would put you right up there with original .404 Jeffrey loadings ! It would be mighty impressive out of a Marlin , on both ends , I wager . [This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 04-22-2002).] | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
Yeah, these heavy .45/70 loads are just NO FUN ATALL to shoot!! A REAL PAIN, even!! | ||
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| one of us |
Originally posted by sdgunslinger: For instance , Lyman #47 lists some loads that go over 2000 fps with 405 gr bullets ; at only 37000 cup . Yet they say to limit those loads to Ruger #1 s only ? Buffalo Bore, as well as a few other ammo makers, have loads simular to this, and are made for modern leverguns. www.buffaloboreammo.com That kind of speed would put you right up there with original .404 Jeffrey loadings ! Don't tell this to the hard core African cartridge purists. They'd tell you the 45-70 ain't no such thing. Imagine, a 45-70 that mimics the 404? Dare I say it'll make it a fine African hunting round? Plenty of support for this by the 45-70 ammo makers of BBA and Garrett's. I'd use one there. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
Rusty Gunn, IF a .375 H&H will kill buffalo, elephant, rhino, etc., so will a .45/70!! maybe even more so. Just use the right bullets!! | ||
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| one of us |
quote: I agree. (My above comments said something to this effect.) | |||
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| one of us |
There is nothing special to talk about when killing a cape buffalo with a big bore rifle such as a 460 WB. However, it would be a pride to bark about using an old cartridge like the 45-70 to kill a big dangerous game. With hard-cast bullets and a modern action like the 1886 Extra Light, this cartridge can drive a 460-grain projectile at around 2000 fps. This is possible with a lever action rifle that weighs less than 8 pounds. Later. Awesome. Cheers. Ming | |||
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| one of us |
The new production 86 win is at a lever between the marlin 95 and the ruger no1 in strength. Tim Sundles of buffalo bore advocates a max pressure for the 86 of 55k psi. Paco Kelly over at sixgunner.com puts the max for the 86 win at 50K psi. In addition with a little gunsmithing the 86 action can be modified to handle cartridges loaded to 2.88 inches compared to 2.55 inches which is SAMMI spec for the 45/70. With heavy bullets (400-500 grains) you have the equivalent of a 45/90 win loaded to modern pressures. 2100 with a 460 grainer and 1850 with a 500 grainer are realistic in a properly setup 86 win. By the way you 45/70 bashers- 2100 with a 460 grainer is just a tick behind the classic 450 nitro load of 2150 with 480 grains. If shots are kept within 100 yards I don't think a buff would notice the difference. ------------------ [This message has been edited by jnc91 (edited 04-27-2002).] [This message has been edited by jnc91 (edited 04-28-2002).] | |||
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one of us |
I would hope Allen Glore would reconsider his posts, he completely missed the point on bolt thrust and the cross-sectional area a cartridge displaces when interfacing the bolt. The 444 Marlin exerts the same bolt thrust on the Marlin 336-style action at 44,000 CUP as the 45-70 does at 40,000 CUP. These are the recognized pressure limits of the Marlin 336-style action for those cartridges. The 450 Marlin has a SAAMI rating of 43,500 PSI. I have not seen CUP figures for the 450 Marlin as there, to my knowledge, have not been published tests using that method. There are also claims that the 1895M has received special heat-treating to withstand the slightly higher pressures of the 450 Marlin. So in other words I would be cautious in heeding statements like, "Loading the 45-70 to the same pressures as the 444 will not increase the bolt thrust enough to harm anything." In addition when citing the Lyman #47 loads remember to look at the test rifle, the overall length of the loaded cartridge, and if it is a cast bullet, this will make a difference in the pressure. | |||
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| <RickMD> |
Loading manuals traditionally group the 45-70 into three categories: The old Springfields (group 1), the "modern" lever actions ie: Winchester 1886 and Marlin 1895 (group 2), and the Siamese Mauser and Ruger #1 and #3(group 3). Ken Waters in his book "Pet Loads" feels this is an incorrect grouping, feeling that there should be two categories for group 3. The normal and the Super group. He places the Marlin in group 3 as opposed to group 2 with the other lever actions such as the 1886, stating that the 1995 was found to be considerably stronger. He also states that no 45-70 can equal a .458 and "don't let anybody tell you can". ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Jackfish, what PSI is 44,000 CUP in the 444 as compared to the 40,000 CUP in the 45-70. CUP can mean less or higher pressures. Some cartridges have a CUP of let's say 52,000, but a PSI of 62,000. CUP is not the same as PSI. so 45,000 PSI in the 45-70 could actually only be 36,000 CUP. The Marlin 1895's manufactured after 1973 are rated for 48,000 PSI and that was when the 45-70 was the most active cartridge in it. I have never yet had a Marlin 1895 fail to function with my loads. 56 grains of H322 is a fairly standard 400 grain cast bullet load for the 1895. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Allen, I am well aware that CUP and PSI are the results of different pressure testing methods and there is no mathematical conversion between them, despite claims by some to the contrary. Through pressure testing using both a conformal piezo electric force transducer for PSI and the deformation of a copper crusher from a pierced case for CUP it has been determined that, due to the characteristics of the slightly tapered case, the 45-70 yields roughly equivalent values. Hence, you will see the SAAMI spec for the 45-70 as 28,000 PSI AND 28,000 CUP. This was found to hold true as the pressure increased to develop load data for modern lever action guns (40,000 CUP) and modern single and bolt action guns (50,000 CUP). All reputable published sources I'm aware of list 44,000 CUP as the safe operating pressure for the Marlin 444 lever action rifle in the 444 Marlin cartridge, and 40,000 CUP as the safe operating pressure for the Marlin 1895 lever action rifle in the 45-70 Gov't cartridge. At those pressures each cartridge exerts roughly equivalent forces on the rifle action (including bolt thrust). The difference is pure physics; a difference in cross-sectional area interfacing the bolt face. The load you listed is probably right around 40,000 CUP. Hodgdon #27 lists a 400 grain Speer load of 55 grains of H322 for the Marlin 1895 which yields 39,200 CUP (I shoot 55 grains of H322 under a 405 grain Remington JSP). Hence, your load with a cast bullet (which has less bearing surface than a jacketed bullet) is also around 40,000 CUP. And because of the observed pressure testing characteristics of the 45-70 it is around 40,000 PSI as well. What source are you citing for your 48,000 PSI rating claim for the Marlin 1895 manufactured after 1973. What about the Marlin 1895s manufactured in 1972 and 1973? Are they not "rated" for 48,000 PSI? 30 years of reloading and 25 years of reloading the 45-70 tell me your statements are less than precise. That's all I'm saying. [This message has been edited by jackfish (edited 05-22-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Jackfish, the 1973 was put out there because I didn't remember exactly which year other than that the 1895 was reintroduced in that time frame. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
A word of warning about using the 45/70 on dangerous game - don't try to use lead bullets much above 1500 fps. Randy Garret went to a 535 grain bullet in order to slow the bullet down without losing hitting power. He found that at 1800+ fps lead bullets hard enough not to lead the barrel would shatter if they hit bone. If you want to use the higher velocity/lighter bullet loads in the 45/70 - stay with jacketed or solid copper bullets. I've shot Buffalo Bore 45/70 ammo in my modern 1886 Takedown - they definitely get your attention when you shoot them. My 1886 is a couple of pounds heavier than a Marlin 1895; but the steel butt plate probably makes up for the heavier weight as far as feeling the recoil. | |||
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| one of us |
CMcDermott, that depends more on what BHN they are. Most hard cast bullets I have shot from the 45-70, 430 JDJ, 338, 358 Win, 41 mag, 45 Colt, 480 Ruger and so on are in the 18-21 BHN and will not shatter at any velocity up to about 2500 FPS or a little more. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Allen, I would still like to know the source for the 48,000 PSI limit for the modern Marlin 1895 rifle. | |||
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one of us |
CMcDermott Glad to see another with one of the 1886 take downs. I'm working honing my off hand accuracy every Sunday, with this rifle. Of course I'm banging away with cast bullets. It's interesting that a hardened 450 to 500 grain slug at 1800, or so, would shatter. I would have guessed that at that velocity they would have held together. This might be a place to experiment with tempering the nose of the bullet. O r would it be temper the body and leave the nose hard. Sounds like a fun bunch of experiments coming up. Jim | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .444 vs. .45-70 pressures
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