Finally broke down and bought QL...money well spent.

My 50-90 ArmiSport 50-90 won't be in until months end...reloading data is scarce as hens teeth for BOTH cartridges and what is available didn't get anywhere close to the potential of the 45-120...

My Sado-masochism needs were getting out of hand and really needing a good slap around so I broke out my 45-120 and started working up some 500gr cast lead loads.

The load I settled on to test for accuracy used 7828, 500 gr bullet, gave 2238fs/35,306PSI and had lots of room to increase. H4831, RL22, AA3100 and Magpro all equalled or beat those numbers, at higher pressures, but still below my 45KPSI limit. We're talking 458 Lott and beyond. FAR OUT. That load is 400 fs beyond Hornady's online data for the 45-120...

It didn't take but about an afternoons worth of playing to learn the program and dial in all the powders that gave the highest velo at the lowest pressures within the 45KPSI range I set for the NEF BC...plus an afternoons worth to work up some 50-90 loads. It even developed some much better load data for the 430 gr TS bullet that shoots so well right now.

QL predicted within 25fs of what the Beta Chrony indicated for the above load...totally awesome.

Load from a Disk has some features that cost extra with QL, like a case design feature...and LD is much quicker and a bit easier to get data working/saved, but I haven't trusted LD's data for a long time...and comparing between the two for several cartridges showed discrepancy between some and close matching between others...so they are BOTH useful if the disclaimer/warnings are followed and for separate data developement.

Should have been less tight with the penny...probably would have save 3-5 times the cost of the program in component cost mucking about banging away...but would have missed all that hammering...hahahahah

Luck

Found a very good powder for the 45-120 and 430gr TS bullet...Hodgdons HV100...QL gives both IMR4831 and HV100 very close numbers...I'm out of the IMR brand so I tried the HV100. Hit 2454fs at 35KPSI which was ~100fs faster than predicted by QL, but that was only one round.

So far QL has predicted velocities that are extremely close to what my Beta Chrony indicated for all the powders that I tried...usually within about 15fs. I am really satisfied with QL.

A 430 gr GC, hard cast bullet at 2400fs plus in a 30" barrel is right there with a Lott in a 4" shorter barrel...and another 10KPSI to go in the NEF BC which is still well below any strain on the receiver.

This rifle DIDN'T like the 500 gr cast lead I bought at a gun show that I was also trying...moved the velo up to ~2300fs at 35KPSI with several of the slow burning powders, but I wasn't hardly able to hit a 3' x 4' target at 25 yds twice in a row.

So far the 430gr TS have only shown vertical dispersion by changing loads in 5 gr increments...the bullet impacts at 100 yds are straight up and down...going an inch lower each round with the HV100.

Not much interest on this link in this thread so I will post on some other link.

Luck

What type rifle do you have for the 50-90? Any idea of what mold the 50 cal was cast in? What weight? Bullet weight and rifleing twist are very important in the 50-90.

Curious because I shoot the 50-90 as well as several other old calibers 45-110, 45-100, 45-90. 45-70 and a 40-70 Sharps Straight. All mine are shot with Black Powder, Never used smokeless in any of them.

Aaron

1874 ARMISPORT SHARPS QUIGLEY, 34", 1-22 T...don't expect it until the end of the month.

I have Beartooth 590 gr plain base, 475gr GC and 525gr Cast Performance GC so far...I ordered these for my 510 Makatak, Rigby based boltgun.

I will order some 625gr PP, 650 and 700 gr from Montana Bullet Works after the rifle gets here and I have a chance to work with it.

The only thing I ever cast were BIG sinkers way back when I lived along the coast and fished a lot.

I'm looking for a commercial 650-700 gr GC Postell type of bullet but haven't found one yet...the closest is a 650 RN GC from Montana Bullet Works so I might design one and go into casting in a small way.

I think something like a 50 cal milspec BT in cast lead would look cool and might shoot if it wasn't more than about 1.6" long and had a shorter boat tail... ...that makes me want to rechamber to 50-140 just to get a case long enough to handle a long bullet within the pressure specs of the 1874 Sharps...at a decent velocity...

I will probably use smokeless mostly in this rifle as I have 3 BP muzzle loaders which is enough BP for me. Cleaning is chore enough with BP without adding cleaning and drying brass...but I will probably do a few BP's just to see what happens.

Any ideas or leads will be appreciated.

Thanks

Luck

Hey Foobar,
What rifle do you have the 45/120 in?
You have me wanting another barrel for my TC Prohunter.

Cheers, John

I too am glutton for punishment. I bought a cheap NEF 4570 and reamed her out to 120. I found cheap surplus IMR 7383 is one of the best. 85 grains is about full case capacity and push my cast 500 grain projectiles to right at 2200 fps. Cases extract nice and easy and I have reloaded them
5 or 6 times so far. I know I am not breaking any speed records but on an 7 pound gun you know when you pull the trigger. Best of all 7383 is usually dirt cheap.

With that twist you will need a bullet of about 600 gr. The orginial rifles were 1:32 and shoot a bullet of about 480 gr. This was Sharp's "Big 50" You will need to watch the casting alloy. Most of what you buy are made soft for use with black powder. The loads your talking about will lead the bore unless you find a good hard bullet. For regular lead look at Buffalo Arms. Good selection of bullets but not for the loads your shooting. Or you can get your own equipment and make your own or shoot jacketed bullets.

Like I said I shoot black powder in all mine which are Shiloh's, one Ped and a roller. Black powder is no harder to clean then any other rifle. Now muzzleloader are a real pain but I like my old flintlocks and hunting with roundball realy makes you work for it. But of course I also hunt with a string and sharp stick.

Just have fun. And if your ever decide you want to try black contact me via PM and we'll talk.

Aaron

BTW: I also shoot a RSM 458 Lott, 458 Win, 375 H&H, 30-06 and a 270. Can't have too many toys.

Hey Phatman,
I like that signature line!

Aaron

Thanks Aaron,
There's a lot of truth to that sig..

Cheers, John

My rifle was originally a 45-70 NEF BC rechambered to 45-120. I added a Gunstocks Inc forend with two dovetail mounts...the original forend mount sheared off and almost ended me.

I installed a muzzle brake some lead shot/epoxy mix in a groove in the forend and also in the stock to balaance and bring the weight up to 11# including the Weaver 4x widefield scope, and a Limbsaver recoil pad on the original straight grip stock...I also have a two thumbhole stocks, one OEM NEF laminated and a Gunstocks Ink thumbhole I decided to put on my 3.85" rechambered 12GaFH NEF Ultra after a few shots make my eyes water with the original stock...wind blown dust you know...

The load I basically settled on and sighted in ~+1" at 125 yds today is the 430 gr TrueShot "Silver Bullet", HV100, 2450-2500fs at ~38KPSI...3 shot group ~2" using unsorted, unweighed bullets and cases...Fed GM primers and trickled weighted charges.

I could bring the group down a bit by sorting the bullets and brass as the brass has a 4-5 gr variation over 18 cases...but the bullets are almost as uniform as jacketed bullets...very little weight/oal/ogive variation.

With the MB and extra weight it isn't TOO bad shooting off the bench, I didn't use my sissy shoulder pad with this 430 gr load like I did with the 500 gr loads...shooting it off hand using a tree to support my off hand makes it much more pleasant.

Basically this rifle equals a Lott...I also have 2 458A's(used a 458 WM reamer but load to the pressure limit of the receiver), a 450 M BLR, the 510 Makatak Rigby cased cannon, several other large bores shooters from 338 to 416 cal and have or had just about(over the past long time) every standard caliber that is or was available, plus a bunch of wildcats. Many of my shooters are switch barrels...several different calibers based on one case, like the 308, '06 and 2.5 and 2.85" belted mag cases.

BUT...I'm relatively new to what I would call "low pressure" loadings...below ~40KPSI...and a rank beginner to BP, if I ever do get there.

Email came today...the 1874 is enroute from Buffalo Arms, Ponderay Idaho. Might get here by Tues...also got another 20 cases today, so time to get some 50-90 loaded up...

Been at this game so long that building or acquiring a new shooter doesn't stir me up much ...but this one is getting me all hot and sweaty to start making noise.

Luck

FOOBAR,
You might be the guy to ask.
I've looked at the Sharps action for many years and to me it looks just like a sliding breach artillery piece, like a Tank Gun, so where is it weak?
I always here people talking about not pushing one hard, even NEW ones.
It looks as strong as a Ruger No.1 to me. What am I missing?

Cheers, John

Phatman,
Shiloh says that their Sharps rifles are as strong as any Ruger. I would say the same for any of the better Italian or Spanish copies. I would not shoot an orginial Sharps with loads for a Ruger just because I would not want to damage it. But also there has been a big improvement in the quality of the steel used and in the quality of the fitting. Not because of the design.

Now, just my opinions on this subject. As I mentioned earlier I only shoot Blackpowder in my 7 or 8 rifles of this type. Why? The history that goes with these old style rifles.They bring back a time of life different then where we are now. And they were effective, just ask 3 million Buffalo. The same reason that a lot of
other folks on this list like and shoot the old Rigby's and H&H's and so on. If I want to shoot 500 gr bullets at 2400 fps then I have a Ruger RSM to do that. I can also go play with my 45-110 and shoot 535 gr lead paper patched bullets at 1400 fps and have just as much fun. At a 1000 yds you can almost have coffee while you wait for the bullet to get there. Now the time of the Sharps rifle ended back in the mid 1880's. But I am curious to know what type rifles and calibers were being used in Africa during this same time frame?

And I think I have gotten way off track from any of this thread. Sorry.

Aaron

JOHN...

I've asked that same question and studied the falling block for a long time, having R#1's since the 60's. You're right about the Sliding Breach thingy, which is what falling blocks are...and they are as strong as the type of steel and thickness surrounding the chamber.

Wikipedia has lots of interesting information, as do several books on the single action...you just have to search it out so at least you have some authoritive references to go by...not just some hooman conjecture without basis or merit.

BUT...AND HERE IS THE MAJOR PROBLEMS...the difference between the steel used by Sharps and the steel used by the Italians is a whole 'nuther ball game...NO Italian gunmaker will give the steel formula(I've tried to get that information without ANY success) and the Italian proof house(lookup Petersoli for that name and an explaination) has specific laws pertaining to proofing ALL replicas.

It isn't the steel per se that is the fly in the pie. but the way the firing pin and transfer bar are arranged...THAT IS THE WEAK POINT...possibly...

AND, depending on the maker, the firing pin and hole size...high pressure causes primer flowback around the firing pin which locks the firing pin into the primer...the hammer must be pulled back to half cock to allow the firing pin to pull back into the breech block so the action can be opened...if the pin is held captive in the primer pocket you basically have to shear/break the pin to get the action open...there are ways to solve this particular problem by bushing the hole and installing a return spring, tho' but that doesn't always help if pressure got loose and blew out the firing pin and transfer bar...


I haven't found ANY definitive description, definitive being "with an engineering authority and backing"... of just HOW MUCH this small fact weakens the various 1874 Sharps and replicas. Here in America, Sharps proofs to a specific level spelled out by SAAMI.

Even if I did I would only reference the source and not put the information online...way too much misunderstandy, misreading going on in that respect.

I haven't read ANY actual reference FROM SHARPS as to their proof level and I WON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING posted on the net I can't substantiate from the AUTHORITIVE SOURCE...NEITHER should anyone else if you're smart.

My ARMISPORTS 1874 SHARPS REPLICA is proofed the same as Petersoli...29,008 PSI, that information is online at Davide Petersoli...if you go beyond that it's "YOURAZZBABY" pure and simple...just like ANY shooter...but people are always doing dumb things...go figure.

That's OK Aaron...I don't think the track has been bent too far... I do the same thing with all my cannons...I have one heavy bullet, top, schat stomping load for when T-Rex or a hungry bar crawls over the back fence, usually 5 rounds, and several I use for popping T-Ratz the rest of the time, to keep my eye during the off season.

I don't care what those hairy legged, macho, testosterone inflamed, he persons say ... shooting some of my heavy loads is a chore and not all that pleasant...I keep my 650gr milspec bullets down around 1800-2000fs which isn't TOO bad. I can single load those to 4.5" COAL and velos way the heck up there still keeping pressures below 62KPSI, well within the Ruger Tang receiver pressure limits.

I was getting stale with all the hi-velo shooters I've built the past 2-3 years...this lo-velo opens up a whole new, very interesting realm to play in...

Thanks for the info...basically I'm just whining about the cleaning aspect...I can use my walnut hull polishing bowls for wet cleaning the BP cases just as effectively as dry polishing aspect...ain'tnothang, Bro'.

Time to start loading some 50-90 rounds.

Luck

In my Shiloh 50 2 1/2 I use a 500 grain mold from Lee (500-515). It is a flat nose and kills moose with aplomb! I use 37 grains of 5744 for a muzzle velocity of 1500fps (it is difficult to get black powder in SE Alaska). I've never seen moose drop so quickly, even better than my 338. It is very accurate too. Jim

No question or doubts about big heavy bullets, at just about ANY velocity, will do a job on anything they hit.

I shot some of Ranger Ricks 720 gr T-Rex in my 45-120, just loafing along about 1200fs, at large rounds of 20-26" dry lodgepole pine rounds lying on their sides and one went through ~43" total log length and continued out the last one into the woods about 75 yds, kicking up a big dust cloud when it finally hit. All I found was the crater...the bullet must have skipped off and I didn't see it.

Rounds standing on end just got split into nice pieces of firewood.

Did you use a filler by any chance. Jim?

AA says that powder isn't position sensitive in the case, but 37 gr in that big case leaves a bit of wiggle room for certain. I have it on my list for next trip to town. Most of the loads I worked out use twice that amount and more.

I loaded up some 475 and 525 gr GC's today, using AA4350 and also made a 26" drop tube for BP...I'm also going to make a BP compression rod to fit one of the dies to get the required 1/16-1/8" compression and wad seating.

The Big Brown truck comes to town Monday, but I'll be gone until Tues...just my Luck...hurry up and wait.

Thanks for the info...I know there are many who shoot this cartridge, but load data is very slow arriving.

Luck

None of my priming tools will handle the 50-90 case and I've been priming the old fashioned way...using a delrin rod inside the case and tapping the primer into the case using a flat alum plate.

So today I took a Lyman #22 shell holder...turned down the OD to match the Lee priming tool slot, drilled out the hole to 5/16" and milled off the bottom extension...then had to open up the mouth of the tool with a motodremel drum sander so the case would slide in...works perfectly now.

Only problem is the Lyman shell holders and most of the other ones also are hardened and I had to use carbide cutters.

I need to do the same thing with my Rigby shell holder...I've long since lost the priming arm for my Rockchucker but I could use the priming station on my Forster Co-Ax press. Slow but effective.

I have 15 50-90 rounds loaded up to test now...475 gr and 525 gr...5 with AA4350 and 10 with AA2495...according to QL, AA2495 powder with those bullets at the specific COAL's give the highest velos...AA4350 is to get the sights close enough to center so I can start the chrono work.

This has been a tough wait.

Luck

GOT IT...came in yesterday, I finished my busy-mess early and I got to the shop just before it closed.

I'm going to be very happy with this toy. Couldn't find but one tiny hiccup that will become "character" over time.

Can't see why the hoohaw over the fit and finish...absolutely nothing wrong that I could find even in the machine checkering...nice sharp diamonds, no overruns on either the stock or forend...and I looked with a 5x magnifying glass.

Any comparison to a Sharps Rifle Co rifle is ludicrous...at 4 times the cost I paid...like comparing a Turnbull restoration to an off the shelf levergun...they are not even in the same state comparatively speaking.

As far as I can tell, I would classify this rifle as "excellent" as compared to any other "production" rifle I've looked at...CZ, Rem, Win, Savage, etc...as far as fit/finish/wood/bluing/machining and so forth.

The wood is OK, not a lot of figure as I expected, this being a production rifle.

The action worked smooth, no slop where it shouldn't be...firing pin DOESN'T need to be bushed and has a return spring so it doesn't stick out after firing...but it would still be safer to half cock it before opening the action, just in case the spring does break or brass/junk happens to get in around the pin and hole.

I fired 3 rounds, AA4350/475gr BT, ~16KPSI/1800fs, just to see where the sights were situated...all shots hit just ~12" low at ~100yds but the windage was correct...probably would have been right on at 50 yds...good enough to start chrono work.

Gun weighs 10-11 lbs...plenty good, but even at this low a velo it will get your attention if you don't get a tight hold.

I definitely needs some king of cheek "softener" for my cheek configuration...I did get 3 good thumps. It also needs a good lace/slipon recoil pad to help with that mean steel butt plate. Already on my order list along with more boolits and powder.

AA4350 is a bit "dirty" with the residue, but it is soft and comes out quick...AA4350 and AA2495 both end up as the "goto" powders, giving the highest velos.

This is a stong action...lots of meat on the barrel and "receiver ring"...the only possible weak place is the "firing pin pusher"(Armisport nomenclature) transfer bar, firing pin hole...gas from a blow primer could blow that part out and upwards, possibly into the face of the shooter.

This cartridge, as is, keeping within the proof pressure limit of 29KPSI and 475-650 gr bullets will provide enough whack to take out a T-Rex anytime day or night. AA2495 will get you ~2250fs with a 475 gr bullet at just below 29KPSI...according to QL...your/my results may vary.

I LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Luck

Well all right
We need a pic or two of the new baby.

Maybe the leather lace on pad for a Garand sniper wouldn't look to bad on it.
Aren't new toys fun!!!!

Cheers, John

That one came to mind...also Buffalo Arms has a couple different ones plus the lace on recoil pad...I have one like that on my Marlin SwitchBarrel.

Straight stocks just don't fit the natural angle of my wrist or maybe I just can't hold on tight enough any more....bought some gloves today to help with that and will get some tackyfinger or sticky tape...for BOTH those straight stocked devils.

Fired two 475gr/AA4350 load over the chrono...1652fs and 1707fs...something isn't matching up, maybe...~200fs slower than QL predicted, this powder is well over 20 years old so that might be it...tomorrow I will do the new AA2495 loads and slug the barrel...to see just how close it is to 0.510" groove ID it is supposed to have.

Thanks for the suggestion, tho'.

Luck

Treebone Carving sells a tradisional Sharps pistolgrip as an addon to your straight grip. They come in walnut and ebony.
Its not as comfortable as a regular pistol grip stock but it does work and it looks great in ebony. 85 bucks.

Cheers, John

Thanks, John...I will look into that...might fit the NEF also, which would be nice also. Price doesn't seem too bad also.

Luck

John...checked out the Ebony thingy...neat looking but not what I was looking for...BUT...I have emailed them for info on their pistol grip semi-inletted stocks for the Sharps...they sound like good people. A nice piece of walnut with some figue in it would be very nice...especially after testing more loads today.

Using 475gr BT/AA2495 got up to 2100fs and still have 5000 PSI to go. The way the increases are going 2300fs should be around the max SAAMI pressure of 29,000PSI.

Have some 525 gr loads waiting for after lunch.

Gloves help but I really need a pistol grip on this beast...plus some padding on my second finger...it gets whacked because of the reach to the front trigger.

This toy is definitely a kick to shoot...

Luck

I never realized the 50/90 would have that much power at only 29K psi.
I wonder what velocity you could get out of the big 700 grainers at that max pressure. That would be a healthy push against the shoulder I'm sure.
Are you having to use any fillers in your loads?

Cheers, John

Hey FOOBAR
If You allowed PM's this would have been quicker, you old goat.

Jeff's Outfitters has a website but I suck at links.
They have the pistol grip stock you want for $89.50.
You can't beat that with a stick..lol

Cheers, John

I do not use any filter in my 50 2 1/2. No hang-fires, over 1000 rounds through it so far. Not sure why you need to push it so hard. With a good sight I can hold a killing shot well in excess of 300 yards, only on a wounded critter though, but it is nice to know it hits at those distances. Haven't tried a heavier bullet yet, the 650's look interesting. Mine has the shotgun butt and it really moderates recoil. The 500 grains bullets at 1500 fps don't recoil much anyway. Have fun and enjoy your new toy. Jim

Whoops...I went and lost this thread,

John; Thanks, I found it. Lots of good stuff...Stock won't work as is due to tang curvatures and need to replace trigger guard, but I'm still checking around. I posted all the information somewhere??.

Jim...True, true...45 and 50 cals are already plenty large in the OD department and 500-600 gr will handle anything in the world at much lower velocities...I just like to see what can be seen from the top of the mountain...and the only way to do that is to climb it.

So far AA2495 has been the goto powder, giving the highest velocity at the lowest pressure with case filling powder amounts...I DON'T like fillers, but a 1/8" felt "filler" wad just below the bullet with a 90 plus % case fill, seems to stop the leading of the barrel AND the mouth of the case. I posted some test results somewhere also.

I found some 725 WFNGC and 975 FNGC's at Ranger Rick's I want to try...I tried his 45 cal 720 gr T-Rex Thumpers in my 45-120 and the penetration was awewome in lodgepole pine logs, between 3 to 4 FEET and the recoil was awesome also. You could probably get 3-4 bison standing sideways one behind the other without any problem...4.5" COAL to boot. No one around my neck of the woods wants to do anything but WATCH me get smacked. Hahahahahaouch.

Luck