I just got my first double rifle yesterday and upon comparing the size of the locks they look bigger than the bolt lugs on my M77 ruger! I am not a mechanical engineer, like some people here, so I am dumbfounded by this.

I plan on hand loading for this new rifle of mine and am concerned about strength. Some of the people I have spoken with, friends and relatives, seem to think I should have no problems with any load I use in it strengthwise, but I might have regulation issues.

Thanks
Casey

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Andy Cooper

I appreciate your response, I really do, but why is the double rifle action so weak? What makes it so weak? I looked it over like I said and the action appears to be at least as strong as my Ruger M77 bolt action. I mean the lugs on my double are bigger than those on the bolt of my M77. I think
I understand the regulation concept pretty well. Several people have told me that the regulation on this particular rifle lends itself to several "loads" well. I would like to get as much performance out of the rifle as the regulation will allow, but at the same time I don't want the gun to blow up in my face either.

Casey

That applies doubly with the Kodiak, which is actually a bit weaker than a convention double like a Jefferys or Searcy etc. That's why it is produced in the low pressured 45-70 round.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Can a double rifle safely handle a double i.e. both barrels going off accidently? Will this accident destroy the rifle?

Casey

Though a "NEW" double rifle may be made of real good steel, and be massive in size, the dynamics of the thrust on the double rifle has not changed since the design was invented. The break top double rifle is still 18th century technology, and to my knowledge, physics has not changed in that time. The chambers are, not only, not in line with the locking system, but above it. Additionally, the right barrel is not only above the horrizonal line of the locking system, but is also to the right of this line as well, with the left barrel being equilly as far above, and to the left of this line. This causes the action to bend down from the standing breach, forward, as well as twist to the left for the right barrel and the same but to the right for the left barrel, when fired. Though this bending, and twisting is microscopic, it is damageing to the steel of the action, and if abused by over pressure, will come off face.

The double rifle is not the place to go looking for high velocity, this is one of the reasons most find they have a problem with their new double rifles, and shout out to the world that double rifles are not accurate, and are worthless farther out than 30 yds. This opinion is born of nothing but ignorance,of what a double rifle is, and what it is not, and preconcieved notions about what they wish to do with this rifle.

The first thing a person should do when he decides to buy a double rifle is admit he has no idea what he is doing, and that he must learn his riflery all over again from scratch. He will also find the rules for handloading a bolt rifle do not apply to double rifles. No other rifle in the world has the same rules to live by, as the S/S double rifle. This fact is not understood my many, otherwise knowledgable, people, even many well known custom gunsmiths, simply do not under stand how double rifle works, and one must pick his smith with caution, when he is dealing with double rifles.

The S/S double rifle is designed around a particular cartridge, pressure, and bullet weight, at a given velocity. Sometimes a very well regulated double rifle, will go completely crazy when a scope is added, or a recoil reducer is installed after market. The rifle is regulated with what is on it when built, and any change in the mix can throw it into a frenzy of scattered shots.

The care and feeding of a side by side double rifle is not something to be entered into lightly! Back to rifle school fellow, you will learn a bunch before you are a double rifleman! A person who is not willing to learn, or thinks he doesn't need to learn anything, is not the best candidate for double rifle ownership!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

The loads you provided earlier according to my reloading manuals state a breech pressure of about 38,000 CUP - 40,000 CUP. This is alot higher than the stock 45-70 ammo which is loaded around 18,000 CUP - 22,000 CUP. You stated that you rifle was regulated for the 300 grain factory load, but shot just fine with a 400 grain load pushed to a velocity, which again according to my reloading manuals, is slightly higher than the factory 300 grain load i.e. 300 grain factory load 1880 fps, 400 grain Speer with 58 grains of IMR 3031 2031 fps.
You stated that there were no pressure signs and no damage to the gun. This is what I want. I would truly love to get 1800 fps with a 500 grain hard cast bullet. My load manuals state that I can get that with a breech pressure of 38,000 CUP, which is what you load generates.

I am also confused because in the bolt action the force is applied directly to the lug, but with the double barrel the load is reduced because of the leverage. I think Alf said it on that thread Todd E started. Alf said and I think he is right that the load is lower on the bite because the torque is less on the bite. It seems to me then that the double may actually be stronger than the bolt action if the lugs are the same size.

I guess what I am trying to understand and hoping someone here can explain to a simpleton Art Teacher like me is simply... How strong is the double barrel action relative to a falling block or a bolt action like a Remington M700 and why?

I know there are people here that can answer this question I am begging you guys to help me out. Mac I know you are trying but I am aweful dense or something.

Casey

quote:

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Originally posted by CASEY:
Mac,

#1
I am also confused because in the bolt action the force is applied directly to the lug, but with the double barrel the load is reduced because of the leverage.

#2
It seems to me then that the double may actually be stronger than the bolt action if the lugs are the same size.

#3
How strong is the double barrel action relative to a falling block or a bolt action like a Remington M700 and why?

Casey

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#1
The thrust IS placed dirrectly on the lugs, but the difference is the thing that makes this so strong, is this thrust causes the cartridge case to try to make the lug compress the steel of the lug, and the whole length of the action. When one piece of steel exerts force on another in a streight line, and the two pieces are already tightly together, it is harder to compress the steel.
With the double the leverage is what does the damage, by springing the action bar.

#2
There is no doubt that some are fooled into thinking the large frame double is stronger than it is, but the facts are it is not! The lugs are used in a different way all together, and the stresses are not as much applied to the lugs (bites)of the double as they are to the action bar, at the juncture of the standing breach, and the action bar.

#3
Actually the falling block like the Ruger No1 is stronger than either of the other actions. The double is still at the bottom of the three. The 700 Rem is not my favorite action, but it is still very strong, it simply has other issues that I don't consider good. Your pressures are correct for the cartridges you list, but the Pedersoli is made plenty heavy to handle 35 to 38,000 psi chamber pressure. Of the old cartridges that were designed for double rifles, some produced 18 long tons (18 LGTNS=40,320 lbs per sq in),of chamber pressure, but most were in the 35,000 lb range, of chamber pressure. The bolt actions habitually handle 55,000 lbs chamber pressure. The double will not handle this kind of pressure, but there is a big difference between the 35,000 psi,close to the upper limit of the double, and the 55,000 psi, which is common for the bolt rifle.

Todd E can give you the numbers, that is his game, I simply know what I know, and I find it hard to explian it, in any meaningful way, to someone else! Sorry!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

I will keep my pressures below 37,000 CUP as published then and approach that with caution. Obviously if I cannot hold the regulation any longer that is when I will have to stop. As I said earlier I just want to get the most out of the rifle I can without damaging the gun nor myself, while maintaining accuracy as well.

A Big Thanks,
Casey

That double is my favorite, although the others are all stackbarrel rifles and as such are different beasts all together.

Jameister aka merkelmeister

The static bolting mechanisms and dynamic forces in firing are just two different animals between the [single-barrel-in-line-bolt action] and the [double-barreled-break-open action].

"Break open" is the key term. If wear and tear or compression or bending forces alter the tolerances that keep the underbolts and hinge pin snuggly mated in the bites of the lumps ... whether it is a static/at rest alteration or a dynamic momentary warp ...then all goes to heck in rapid progression, like dominoes falling: off face.

A Mauserite bolt action thrives on slamming the bolt open and closed and laughs at a little grit or grime in the mechanism.

A double's action cannot tolerate dirt nor slamming open and closed. They are as delicate and precise in their bolting mechanisms as they are effective in delivering that fast second shot.

The bolt action simply does not suffer the same severe dynamic stresses. Any of the wear and tear short of catastrophic blowup simply develops excessive headspace in a slowly progressive manner, comparatively much more slowly than an abused double would.

You cannot simply measure the surface area of the locking lugs of the bolt action and the bites of the double's lumps and expanse of the lumps and raceways and compare them as a comparison of strength. It's apples and oranges, two different animals.

Mac has made this perfectly clear. If anyone doesn't understand this, he had better re-read Mac's posts above.

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RAB

I suspect it would be better at 20,000 PSI than at 38000...At any rate you really should ask Kodiak what their recommenddation for loads are and where their guarentees are...Many fine doubles need to be tightened up every 300 to 600 rounds...Many are off the face and the owners don't even know it and thats not good for the gun...I have my double checked over every year by my favorite double rifle smithy.

Good double rifle smiths are L&L Interprises, Carson city Nv. and DAvid Yale, Yellow Jacket, Colo.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

My adivse is use IMR4895 or H4895. With a 400 grain pill you will most likely be able to achieve a compresses load and keep the pressures below the 29,500 CUP mark.

For the record Pedersoli states that the factory proof test load generates 28,000 psi.

Too bad no one ever answered my questions. Alf tried and even got some partial credit due to partial correctness. Other did not even have the guts to try. Oh well, I am done now this is the last word for me anyway.

Enjoy your double. I think with the right powder (like IMR4895) you can get a 400 grain pill to 1900 fps and maintain your regulation. That would be one potent close range North American woods rifle. Heck I might get one myself.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 05-22-2002).]

Ta ta,

R

Casey

Your 45-70 (if that is what you have) is made for its own uses. Your uses. your loads. your choices. Know the limitations of powder and pressure, and within them, I doubt you will wear that "weak action" out.

And if you do, then certainly you have had thousands of rounds of enjoyment at quite a good bargain. And when you get as old as I am, and you see a safe full of guns and rifles that you do not have enough time left to wear out, then you will understand it when I say: If you take care of it, it will certainly do everything you ask of it and more than you will ever be able to ask of it.

So forget the hinge pin, forget the max loads. Find a good load and go looking for things to use it on.

this missive is to myself as well as anyone else, since I too spend more time keyboard hunting than critter shooting. Carried a shotgun for three days last week for turkey, and never pulled a trigger. Did not matter whether I had 3 inch duplex or 2 3/4 inch buffered, or what choke or what LOP... still a great hunt and saw two buddies each kill their first gobblers.

shoot straight and waidmansheil.

quote:

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Originally posted by merkelmeister:
Casey: relax and enjoy your new rifle!! ....

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Well said..