My gunsmith sent me the following (pertaining to the ejection problem of my CZ550 in .416 Rigby):

"The extraction problem is still there

On the bolt face of your bolt is a chamfer ( like a bevel machined on from the factory) . This is wrong and should NOT be there . This is what is causing you the grief . [....remarks about the picture added were deleted; I can post the picture up here later if anybody wants to see...] Solution : you would require a new bolt on warranty (Good luck) . Another solution but not the first choice would be to get the bolt tig welded by building up and then remachining it. This can be done so that the lugs remain the proper temper in the steel. I talked to the CZ inmporter in Canada and was told that they could supply with an exchange bolt in 375 , on which I would have to cut the bolt face and head space. That would be a good job. Or we could send this bolt to Czechoslovakia
approx two months waiting time."



Thr front bolt is mine, the pencil indicates the edge in question. Behind it is the second bolt with the edge as it apparently is supposed to be...???

Does this make sense to anybody?

Frans

I think the picture of the bolt face would be helpful in trying to figure out if what he is saying makes any sense.

Yeah, will do. I'm on the road now, unable to shrink the pictures, and he sent me a 1.2 MB file. Didn't want to expose you all to that.

Frans

Added the picture... For $100 and two times shipping the smith will take a .375 bolt and machine it to fit. But if that chamfered edge is not supposed to be there.... how did it get there? What do your bolts look like, CZ50 owners?

Frans

My internet connection isn't at my house so I will check mine tonight and post tomarrow. My 550 is a 375 though.

Really I don't see how that would have any effect on extraction, unless there is a burr.

What is exactly is the extraction problem? When I think of an extraction problem I think of a case still in the chamber when the action is cycled.

Just noticed something else. Do you know if the bolt in the back is also a 416 bolt or is it a different caliber. The extractor in the back looks like it is longer than yours, with more space between the extractor and the bolt face. I could just be the angle though.

Well, he calls it an extraction problem, but it really is an ejection problem. It's been described here before, and frankly it's been so long I'm starting to forget the details. But one of the bullets/cases won't eject properly, I seem to recall the one that preceeds the bullet that sits on the left in the staggered magazine. My theory still is that the dud ejector somehow binds on the one that comes up from below, since that one gets pushed forward a bit. Sometimes the dudd makes it out of the action, but many times it doesn't, with a jam as the result.

The problem only occurs with this one round/case. All other fly in an impressive curve, far from the gun, just the one hangs up.

I think I may need to make the pilgrimage to Cranbrook and talk to these guys face to face. Their e-mails are too cryptic for me.

Frans

It sounds to me like something is causing the ejector to hand up, which is probably dealing with ejector itself or the follower.

I would get a second opinion, especially if you don't like the e-mails. I think if the e-mails are "cryptic" then they're not really sure whats wrong but want you to pay them till they get it right. If that bevel had anything to do with it I think it would happen on every round.

If it was my rifle and I used smiths I would get a second opinion.

Is this person trying to eject a loaded round or an empty case?

Some of the problem maybe the fit of the extractor .

From the looks of the chamfer it was put on the bolt to aid the Rigby rim finding it's way under the extractor.

The bolt from my CZ 375 looks like the bolt in the rear of the picture. The edge is not beveled (pencil point) Can get you a pic is required.

Can't tell. There are clearly differences between the bolt faces, but they may be caliber related.

Just looked at my CZ and the bolt is chamferred also.
No feeding or extraction problems here thankfully.
Mine is a CZ 550 American Safari Magnum in 375 H&H.
Perhaps the chamferring is new?

It seems as if there is a slight undercutting of the shoulder of the bolt face. If so, the rim of the case could be caught in the "groove" and not eject cleanly.

I would think it difficult if not impossible to do this to a bolt.

I would want the company to make it right or, alternatively, for the company to authorize the repair by the gunsmith. I would fear that any other fix might leave me liable for the outcome and the company could wash their hand of the affair. Kudude

My CZ550 416Rigby has exactly the same bevel as shown on the right hand bolt in the picture so that hardly seems the problem to me. I have no ejection problems at all.

look closely at the two extractors.....there seems to be differences!

I have a .375 H&H Safari Mag (Euro version). The bolt face and extractor look like the left one in the picture (no chamfer of the bolt rim and more acute chamfer of the extractor). I can't fathom why the rim chamfer would cause extraction/ejection problems unless there is a burr. Methinks your smithy has been sniffing bluing salts too much.

I have owned a dozen CZ 550's, no problems of note with any except the .505 Gibbs is a tricky feeder. I have never seen a bolt-face rim beveled like that on any of them, nor any other CRF. Prechtl Magnum Mausers and Dakota 76 Africans don't do it that way either.

It looks flawed for sure. I can imagine altered feeding and ejecting nuances both possibly arising from that.

Looks like they started to open it up for the .505 Gibbs and changed the itinerary, or botched the usual job and tried to fix it/hide it with a bevel!!!

No good can come from that. Get a new bolt.

It does look like the extractor is opened up too much also. Does not give a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I’d get a second opinion and a probably a new bolt as well. None of my CZ rifles had the bevel on the bolt like yours. Like the guys said above your extractor may be contributing to the problem. An extractor being out of spec will effect ejection; I believe this to be the case with my 505 anyway. Good Luck…..

Matt V.

To be fair to the smitty, here's a synopsis of his explanation by phone:

The dimensions of the bolt/extractor are wider/deeper than required. This results in a wobbly hold. This is excacerbated (thought I'd try a big word for once, maybe spelled wrongly though), anyway, made worse by the chamfered side, which gives less support than when it had been straight. He says the dimensions of the CZ bolts vary quite a bit. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes not. So the idea is to take a .375 bolt on warrenty from the importer, and machine it to fit. He'd suggest this over trying to get a replacement .416 bolt out of the Czech republic, which may then have the same problem (there is no such thing as CZ-Canada, as opposed to a CZ-USA).

Frans

I've just spent the last few minutes comparing my CZ550 416Rigby bolt to the one in the photo. I can't see any difference in my bolt and the one on the right with a bevel. The extractor appears the same as to shape of grind and depth and the bevel appears to be the same. If anything the one in the picture appears to have a THICKER lip around the bolt face than mine. The thickness of the lip on mine is .049, the height of the lip from the face is .068 for that portion that goes UNDER the extractor and .105 for that portion that has the bevel. A case head of Bell brass fits perfectly snug on my bolt. When the case is tipped to the side as it would when being ejected it of course loses tension immediately upon reaching the beveled portion of the lip. I would believe this bevel is a deliberate design feature of the bolt. It's hard to see how this could in any way be causing the problem. I would think the problem lies with the ejector and not the bolt. I can't visualize what you are saying occurs and the reference to it only happening with ONE of the rounds in the magazine. There must be something I'm missing in the description of whats happening. I personally would look for another smith to work on the problem before I did anything drastic. After looking at the ejector again in detail I would remove it and carefully stone the top point SLIGHTLY rounded and very polished. It is remotely possible that as the ejector comes up in the bolt slot it some how hangs on something and does not come up completely this might tie in with the statement you make that the round under the one that hangs is pushed forward. This would be the case if the ejector was SLIGHTLY too long. Wish I could actually see the rifle as I think it's a simple problem to solve.

quote:

To be fair to the smitty,

IMHO, I would follow their advice on this. With all due respect to the other great gunsmiths north of the 49th, your gun is in the hands of some of the very best anywhere.

Hope they get it sorted out for you soon!

Cheers,
Canuck

My .375 H&H looks like the back bolt, my .416 Rigby looks like the front bolt. The extractors are also different with the Rigby protruding farther from the boltface. This is why there is a deeper cut into the flange on the .375's bolt-face.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
With all due respect to the other great gunsmiths north of the 49th, your gun is in the hands of some of the very best anywhere.

I know, I know.... I just can't stand being in a position of dependence, not knowing whether I'm being BS-ed or not. That is why e.g. I hate taking my truck to a shop. They are bound to come up with some story about part x, always costing hundreds of dollars, that absolutely needs to be replaced, even though I may not have noticed anything wrong. I try to take care of repairs myself these days. I'd probably make a very annoying patient if I ever get sick, and need hospital care, I'm not good at doing things just because somebody tells me. I probably would have made very poor army material!

Frans

With some further staring at my two bolts I think I can explain the bevel on the Rigby.There is so little meat left on the bolt that if you were to single load an extra cartridge into the chamber the flange would hit on the outer rim of the case, possibly denting the rim before the extractor snaps over. The bevel helps the process by ramping off the edge, saving the case rim.The .375 size bolt-face leaves enough steel in the rim that it hits into the more solid case head where it can't do any damage before the extractor cams over.
I don't see the boltface as being the problem, think extractor or more likely ejector.

The CZ extractor is not designed to pushfeed, and the side of the extractor must be manually compressed to make it snap over the rim of a pushfed cartridge, just like a Mauser.

Has anyone ever seen a Mauser bolt face beveled like the offending CZ??? I have not.

There is plenty of rim left on the CZ bolt face for a cartridge as small as the .416 Rigby. The very fact that a bevel can be so applied to the Rigby bolt face rim screams "Meat!" And lots of it.

I do not understand why the Rigby would require a bevel and the H&H would not.

Makes no sense to me.

First the C-clip, now "The Bevel."

Hi Frans,

The bevel is no big deal, unless is goes down too low toward the bolt face. If the bolt face where the base of the cartridge sits is a sloppy fit, or the extractor doesn't hold the case tightly enough, you will get dribbly ejection, or no ejection in a severe case.

I used to have a 416 Rigby built up on a ZKK action that suffered from both maladies.

If you have a good smith, ask him to open up a 375 H&H bolt face for you. He can match the bolt face and the extractor tension/shape exactly to the ammunition that you use (rim diameter and thickness dimensions do vary laddies). He can even add a chamfer if that helps with the geometry of ejection.

I'll try to take some pictures of my present 416 bolt face with empty and full cases inserted when I get home tomorrow night (20 hours hence).

Looking at my bolt face just now I figured why the chamfer is there. It is a good idea, and it isn't for ejection geometry.

LD

It seems like either there is too much tension between the case in side of the extractor groove and the case ..[[ ? does the rifle normaly chamber easily ?? }} Or the Ejector is a bit too short , or doesn,t come up far enough...

quote:

I do not understand why the Rigby would require a bevel and the H&H would not.

Makes no sense to me.

Brother RIP,

Rotate the extractor until it is next to the beveled area, and then look at the nose of the bolt from the front.......

My bolt face is slightly sloppy, but the extractor tension is pretty well balanced to it. It will hold a loaded cartridge upside down for five moderately vigorous spins before it falls out. Works well enough in the rifle.

Frans, I think you should go with your gunsmith's recommendation. You will end up with something that fits much better than by playing mass production lottery with the factory.

LD

Thanks all, for the recommendations. The smitty is going to machine me a new bolt from a .375...

Heck, it is only money...

Frans

Frans, I made the suggestion awhile back to go to that smith and trust him for the best work. I'm glad you have and I still stand behind the recommendation. He's accepted similar challenges from me and come up with a solution that worked and any rifle he worked on always left the shop in a failsafe mode. Recently he modified a double to my specs and copied an inovation for any future problems to clients' firearms. His personal standards and quality of work in my opinion is the reason for my recommendation. If a firearm meets his standards it's now a "DG" firearm!
~Arctic~

If you guys are talking about who I think you are in Cranbrook, you just all need to leave those fellas alone! That way they can finish my build from scratch that much faster!

Seriously, Frans, I'd trust those guys with any firearms problem/project. They deserve the respect they have earned, and earned it they have, in my opinion. I wouldn't even begin to second guess them. Asking questions is always good, though. Make sure you understand everything. Nothing worse than miscommunication or a misunderstanding. Especially when dollars are involved...

Good luck. Hope the rifle is up and in top form in quick time. I'm sure it will be.

Thanks for the comments in support of the smith.

I promise to sing their praise when the rifle is all snuffed up and a real DG gun.

I guess I'm a very annoying customer, always wanting to know what is going on, and trying to understand things that they have learned by years of experience.

DPhillips, you may be interested to know that they have a Dutch bloke from New Zealand working with them now, so extra hands. Maybe your gun will be finished sooner!

If we are talking about the same smith of course.

Frans

Why so coy? Obviously they are good. Sing their praise and name the master gunsmith, please.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Why so coy? Obviously they are good. Sing their praise and name the master gunsmith, please.

I don't see any harm in naming names here...hope you don't mind me jumping in Frans...RIP, he is talking about Ralph Martini and Martin Hagn. http://www.martiniandhagngunmakers.com/

Those guys definitely don't mind customers asking questions Frans. They are not quite as "personable" (ie. chatty) as some (like my fave Bill Leeper! ), but they definitely do know what they are doing...Frans has no need to worry.

Cheers,
Canuck

Thanks Canuck. I figured it was them, as well known as they are. That is one reason I so vehemently agree with them, besides never having seen a bolt face so butchered, in all my vast experience.

Bill Leeper is the only other Master Gunsmith from Canada that I know of.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Why so coy? Obviously they are good. Sing their praise and name the master gunsmith, please.

I don't see any harm in naming names here...hope you don't mind me jumping in Frans...RIP, he is talking about Ralph Martini and Martin Hagn. http://www.martiniandhagngunmakers.com/

Those guys definitely don't mind customers asking questions Frans. They are not quite as "personable" (ie. chatty) as some (like my fave Bill Leeper! ), but they definitely do know what they are doing...Frans has no need to worry.

Cheers,
Canuck

Yeah, leave 'em alone so they can build my rifle!!!

Just kidding of course, guys...

Yeah, those guys....

They have my baby bedded (in one of those ugly, but hopefully very functional CZ aftermarket laminates), and they were going to do something with a peep sight, though now I might try the NECG peep, that fits the CZ550 specifically, when it comes out, and I'm probably going to ask them to put a slightly bigger bolt handle on...

Hope all that doesn't interfere with the much more creative activities of building your rifle DPhilips! ;-)

Frans

Nah, Frans, they're sick of me. You are a welcome break from me, I'm sure!

Good luck on getting the CZ up and running perfectly.

Dave