Having never been to Africa or Australia, and having never killed anything bigger than mule deer, I find myself wondering about all the words devoted to the topic of stopping power. I've read Taylor, Boddington, Truesdell, Aagaard and others, as well as hundreds of posts on the Net. So I am quite willing to admit right out front that I have NO PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE with this topic. That said, I am still curious about trying to capture or quantify the point where stopping power starts. I am thinking of the .458 Win Mag and 500-grain solids, and a Cape buffalo coming at the shooter at, say 20 yards. I realize the classic shot here is to stuff those solids up the nose and avoid buncing them off the forehead/boss. Boddington even suggests, with his usual elan, fading slightly to one side and holding just under the curve of the horn. But now this is where I get confused. Everyone damns the .458 for the fact that those 500s at 2150 are actually only moving at 1980 fps in factory loads, and either handload hotter themselves, or go to the Lott and an honest 2300. But given the same scenario, a 500-grain .458 solid up the nose at 20 yards, will the bullet fail to stop the charge at 1900 fps (4007 fpe)? 1800 (3597)? 1700 (3208)? 1600 (2842)? How will the failure occur, assuming the bullet itself does not fail? In this particular shot, it would seem we are striving to mechanically disconnect the buff's motor cortex from its muscles, so adequate penetration to do this job is clearly what it called for. AT what velocity does that penetration fail? You more experienced hunters can probably create other scenarios with lions or buff in which the bullet is assigned different tasks. I am not challenging the collective experience of many generations of African hunters. I am just wondering what is so magical about the old classic standard of .458 bullet and 5000 fpe (especially wiht no elephants on the menu), and about why a .458 Win Mag delivering 500 grains at 1950 "just won't cut it," and causes much muttering around African campfires and in print, while the same rifle delivering 500 grains at 2150 is the nuts.

Stopping power worksd by doing damage to the targets vital strutures Like a hole in the brain or the spine well work most every time. Beaking other bones work also depending on what you hit. To get good stopping power the bullet has to make it to the target area. A bullet that breaks up, well not do that on big game. ON small game it works great causeing mmassive damage. So you need a rifle and bullet that not only well hit what your shooting at but well damage what you need. So long as the bullet get there and does the job you have stopping power. A poor hit with a heavy caliber unless it hits the proper bones or vital area. Well piss something off as much as a poor hit from a lite caliber. So if you want real stopping power make sure you shoot them where you are surppose to with a gun that well hit what you need to. Then break what it is surppose to.

I agree with PDog shooter up to a point, but a 22 or 30 cal. in the heart of a Buffalo will give him plenty of time to stomp your Arse, plenty of time!!!

Stopping power is SD first and cross section of the bullet 2nd...and that is where all the good formulas wonder around to when you trim away the B.S. and cut them to the bone....

The bullets got to get in where the engine is and the bigger the bullet the more whump to the goodies...just like a can of milk, the bigger the hole, the faster it lets the stuff out and when its empty it is defunk!!
or as was posted recently fatter bullets punch bigger holes, Amen

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Bill:
The scenario that you postulated above is somewhat correct. The 500 gr bullet at 1900 fps at 20 yards would indeed brain a buffalo.
Body shots however, would be something else.
Using a 45 caliber on elephants is another mater. Plenty of penetration is what you want on these fellows. It seems, that it takes about 2300 fps for adaquate penetration with a 500 grain bullet. I did some pentration test some years ago loading the 458 at about 1850 fps the penetration was 23/24" . Even at 2100 fps I only got 29in plywood. The 416 at 2400 fps was 39" and later a 458 Lott, gave 36" at 2300 fps.
So It does make a difference with the right set of circumstances.
Good Hunting
George

Tell me if this flys, as far as knock down power goes.
It's like taking out an armoured vehicle. If you can take out the driver (brain) the machine comes to a stop, if you can take out the engine (heart,lungs) it will coast a while, but will stop, if you can break the axels (the heavy leg bones), you will immobilze for later finishing shot, or you can break the frame (the spine) for fast stop and immobilizing, for finishing shot.
How these are accomplished will depend on the size of the game and the hunters skill, then the bore size, velocity, makeup of the bullet become a consideration.
I've forgotten the fellows name that used to run up to elephants and shoot them with a 6.5, in the head. Then there was the fellow who shot his game with a 2 bore and had a nose bleed each time the gun went off.
Jim

It is very difficult, to stop a charging buffalo with a brain shot, because its head is heavily moving up and down. An upper heart shot with a modern big bullet like BarnesX or TB works best, if you are prepared to do a step aside before he is down. This is not only my experience, but I learned it from Sten Cedergren, a well known and experienced PH.

------------------

Everybody is correct on how to stop a buff, but it all depends upon the situation.

Say you have a double and you miss the brain with the first shot...now what? Do you take a chest shot and jump as Norbert suggests, or do you wait for it to lower its head and go for the neck/spine shot? Probably equally effective but do you have the guts to do it?
And if the buff is that close you may get hammered anyway from the momentum. A big gun may save you if you don't get either shot quite right.

Talk is cheap until you have to prove it, or die trying, or die not trying.

Will

I recall "Alf" and some others beating up on me a while back when I expressed my thoughts
regarding chest shots to stop a buffalo. When the head is bouncing, as Norbert mentions, this can be the higher % shot
and, as Will says, when a very powerful rifle is employed, it may well work to ones advantage here. I am not saying I prefer this shot to a head shot but I think the hunter should learn this shot and use it as needed. The high heart / spine shot is a genuine "stopping" shot and is often a larger and less mobile target than the brain.

I would define stopping power as having a rifle/caliber/bullet combination that would allow the shooter to be in control of the situation no matter how hairy/tense/exciting it gets...something that will crumple animals that want to stomp, butt, run over, mutilate,bash or simply eat you. I'm not sure what the bottom thresh hold is, but I'm sure that its recoil is too much for me.

I have been practicing veterinary medicine for 35 years and I can tell you that what kills animals is light getting to the inside of the body. Light is very toxic and the bigger the hole is the more light gets to the sensitive cells causing more rapid damage. The more sudden the exposure the more toxic.
It's kinda like the "smoke theory" of electical function. When all the smoke leaks out of an electrical apparatus it stops working.

Bill/Oregon,
I have not given up on trying to scientifically understand why the .458 seems to go to hades in a hand basket in some situations. I have however adopted a rule for the stopping rifle, included in the application scheme of the Bwana Saeed Index: 200 BSI or more, the more the better, up to a point of shooter tolerance or impractically heavy rifle. That is a heavy bullet of large caliber and sectional density of 0.330 or greater at moderate velocity in the range of 2150 to 2450 fps MV.

Most .458's have a 14 twist barrel. Some even use a 16 twist, like the .460 Weatherby factory barrel did at one time.

If velocity at the muzzle drops below 2100 fps, or thereabouts, the bullet RPM's from a 14 twist barrel will drop below 110,000 RPM, or thereabouts. This may be one reason why the .458 is marginal or fails so often with the slower factory load, but of course poor bullets may also be part of the equation.

Maybe there is something about a faster twist barrel that makes it work better with the slow moving .458 500 grain load? Anyone done the tests yet? I don't think even MacPherson did in his book. Andy?

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
Bwanawannabe, Daktari Ron

Dr. Duc - Thanks for shedding some light on this subject. I tend to agree, however, I have always believed that my animals expired due to a sudden exposure to lead poisoning. Seeing that you are an animal doc and all, you probably know more about this light poisoning.

Bill - On a more serious note, �stopping power� was largely a marketing ploy to sell big bore guns 75 to 100 years ago. It was not until many years later that anyone attempted to quantify what �stopping power� meant. What was �stopping power� 50 years ago, only scratches the surface compared to the energy generated with modern big bore rifles today. The energy delivery vehicle (aka bullet) is far superior to anything available 50 years ago. Thank you Mr. Nosler!

As many have pointed out, there are parameters that apply for buff and ele. Beyond this basic common sense, there is little applicable science behind the term. Sufficient energy, applied to a sufficient bullet, delivered to a vital area is what stops any animal. Open a hole (let the light in) and things die. The higher the candle power of the hole, the quicker death will be.

Every hunting situation is different. The variables associated with killing are impossible to replicate from shot to shot. The controlled ballistic test at the range does not correlate well in the field. As many have already stated on this forum - I have yet to shoot a plywood elephant or a gelatin buff. What was a �stopper� in one situation, may not work in the next.

At the end of the day as Ray stated, stick some lead in the snot box or in the pump & bellows room and you got a stopper. There ain�t much science required to figure that out.

Z

My hat is off to Ray, Ron, Nick and all you guys who have seriously experienced the tenacity of African game and what it takes to put them down for good. I would never have thought that an Impala would live for 4 min with his heart destroyed or that an elephant could take 4 400gr shots within an inch of his brain and still get up. If you are not tough in Africa you don't live long and that applies to everything. Whoever first said "Bring enough gun" said a mouthful.

The best or most powerful rifle in the world is useless without proper bullets and the single most important thing a hunter himself brings to the fight- cool nerves. The best elephant basher or buffalo mauler is calm and cool shooter that will stand his ground and put the bullet in the brain. I've seen several heart shot buffalo run plenty far enough to kill you, it ain't a stopping shot, IMO, with respects to old Sten. "If you're really talking about stopping an all out buffalo charge you wait until the animal is close and then put one right up his nose or just under the eyes, depending upon the head position" according to Robin Hurt.

Unless I'm seriously mistaken, the only time the 458 really fails is due to powder compaction, and thats a sho nuff failure..Other than that I have never heard of it failing...

As to heart shot Buffalo with any caliber, they wonder around Africa a long time after the shot...I have seen them go 500 yds with the top of the heart blown away, but mostly about 100 yds...I have seen Buffalo shot through both lungs live several days...At any rate they have time to do harm, but if you hurt them enough it takes the spunk our of them. It's thoes worrisome shots that give them time to sore up and get real mad...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I find this topic fascinating but really want to know what the etiquette is when faced with empty gun and buff full of lead and still charging.....

Also everyone seems to talk about buffalo in conjunction with stopping power - very very scary I agree but what would really make me lighten myself is something with teeth approaching at undiminished velocity. There is a deep primeval fear in me about being eaten!

I know this sounds crazy but in my old job when you ran out of rounds and still had people approaching with intent, you put a long sharp thing on the end of your rifle....I'd love to see the look on the PHs face as you fix bayonets before entering the thicket.

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 05-16-2001).]

Well folks, I only have had one buffalo charge me that required a real life stopping.
So I will defere to more experience, for the formula that makes up stopping power. I will say, however, that a heart shot is "NOT" a stopper for even a little 75 lb. whitetail, and I can guarantee you it will not save your bacon in a close encounter with a Cape Buffalo, that is entent on turning you into toe goo!

In the one charge I was involved in, with buffalo, started a about 15/18 yds. I was a total surprize, as we were stalking some wildebeast at the time, and had absolutely no idea the buffalo was within 18 miles, much less 18 yds. He was alone, and charged from my right out of the thorn, and it was evident he was not going to stop on his own. As is my habit, I had a soft point in the right barrel of a 500/450 double, and a solid in the left. I immediatly fired the right barrel into the neck about 8" above the point of the "V" that is formed where the neck meets the chest. This shot is directly into the heart. At the same time My PH fired a 300 gr 375 H&H into the same spot. This did not even slow the buff that I could tell. My second shot, a solid, went into the tip of his nose, and through the brain. This turned the lights out, and as he started down the PH hit him again with his second shot in the side of the face, the bullet going under the skin of the left side of the buff's face, came out, and re-entered the side of the neck, and ended up between the right shoulder and the ribs.

Now lets look at this for a moment. Both my shot, and the PH's hit the heart pulverizeing it, and tore a big hole in the left lung. My second shot was fired before the bolt rifle could be reloaded, and lucky for us it hit the brain. The second shot from the bolt did nothing at all. I manetain
if all four shots had been in the heart area, I would not be writeing this today. Additionally, if I had been alone luck would have been with me, but only because of my second shot, because it was the only one of the four that I consider a "STOPPING SHOT"
If the PH had been alone, and his shots had been placed the same way, I couldn't have hunted with him two years later, because neither of his shots were "STOPPERS" Not because he was useing a 375 H&H, but because the shots were not in the right place to turn off the electricity. As it is when he stopped on the ground his nose was only 2 1/2 yds from my toe! You make what you can of this happening, but it convenced me that a killing shot, is not a stopping shot, and in this case we were lucky that one out of the four WAS!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>

Allow me one more crack at this as some fellows are reading "high heart" shot as a heart only shot and are not acknowledging the word "spine" when "high heart/spine" is written.
The shot Norbert and I are referring to coincides with a frontal high heart shot but you all know where the low loop of the spine is from this angle and "It" is the primary objective here, elevating the shot to stopping status in the eyes of some.
It is well described in a number of books including, if I recall correctly, "The Perfect Shot" by Robertson. I do concur with the brain shot at "snot locker" distance but
but I certainly won't wait around for it if I can get this shot in. When a buffalo, whose shoulder is busted, comes with his head rising and falling with each painfull stride, I will take this frontal high heart/ spine shot and hope to end things.

Now if you simply want to stop a silly little charge from a milk fed Buffalo all you have to do is wait until he gets to you and when he drops his head to toss you, you simply shoot him down through the boss, nothing to it!

I personally have had a problem with this shot as I cannot shoot well over my shoulder at a dead run..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

You guys need to read the arguments at HuntAmerica about double rifles (Swamp and his desire for a 470), where the claim is made that there is no real reason for them, for one reason 'cause most PH's don't use them. It's hysterical.

470NE

Will,
I just finished reading through it and I thought it was a darn good exchange.
Ray certainly has a knack for ending threads in a great way! I laughed like hell.

Stopping buff,
I would till like to see Saeed's 700 nitro stoked up to about 2350fps on a buff. See if that flattens it on the spot with a chest shot.

I only speculate since Jack Gooch from SCI told me his 585 nyati with 750gn woodleigh softs at 10,500ftlbs was electrocuting big water buff on the spot.And these things can run you around the swamp with 458 cal holes in the heart no problem.

So can the modern dinosaur rifles(585's,700, 50BMG wildcats) settle this argument once and for all?

P.H's would not have had access to these calibres in their young days and are not inclined these days to try and lug 15lb rifles generating 150ftlbs of recoil.

So it's left to one of us to test a dinosaur rifle on steroids, on a buffalo.

Who's up?

Karl.

Once you reach 2300 FPS the only thing that adds to stopping power is uping the cross section of the bullet...additional velocity has proven to add nothing...Reference from the latest issue of Magnum magazine, RSA and I buy that 100% based on my experience....Now thats for stopping power or the ability of a bullet to turn a charge...Whump" as I like to call it...has nothing to do with Killing power...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I think we need to think a bit broader on this issue, and define what it is we are after, and whether we can truly quantify it, or whether there is enough field experience out there to answer it.

If one can make a frontal brain shot on a charging beast, I think we can all agree, caliber is more or less superfulous, provided we have sufficient penetration. The question is, do you have the balls of steel to make that shot 100% of the time?

Now, if we say, ok, we can't make the brain shot 100% of the time, what are we after? We are after doing the most extesive physical damage possible, and this is produced solely be larger diamter bullets, heavy enough to penetrate. Provided one can shoot the bigger gun as accurately as the smaller, or rather not quite as big gun, then I see the answer is clearly, bigger is always better.

True stopping power, ie stopping the beast regardless of shot placement will not be realized by shoulder fired rifles. You'd have to use an RPG for that. What the bigger guns provide are simply narrowing ones odds by degrees, but they gurantee nothing. You will always hear the rare case of an enraged beast shaking off multiple hits from large caliber rifles. You also run into the issue of the very large rifles having very little use in the field, so it seems difficult to produce a meaningful evaluation of how they perform.

More ravings from the lunatic fringe of gun nuts, yours truly, Bwana Ron...

Another ideal minimum stopping load, IMHO, would be:

Caliber minimum: .458
Velocity: 2340 fps
Bullet weight: 480 grains, sectional density 0.327

Guess what? The BSI of this load is exactly 200 also.

Any load with a BSI of 200 or greater will do. That requires a minimum of .458 caliber for practical purposes.

That makes the .458 Lott the best all around minimum stopping rifle. I think most would agree.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
Bwanawannabe, Daktari Ron

Ron,

If you could get all these gun cranks to agree on a common, minimum level of BS, then I submit your talents should be applied to qual the warring factions around the world.

What I want to do some real world research on, is, what is the minimum to get a mooses attention. Everyone says you shoot them, whether a .270 or .375, they just stand their, or saunter off. Hmm, I just can't believe that a 50 caliber 600 gr rn soft at 2400 fps wouldn't have a dramatic affect.

If you ever make it back up here on a permanent basis, we'll have to ply our BS to the field, if the wolves don't beat us to it.

Paul H,
So true. The Bwana Saeed Index/Bull Shi# Inhibitor is a great tool. Problem is most of the members don't want their BS inhibited, so would never be able to accept any sort of BS guidelines such as the BSI. That is O.K.

I think the safest BSI for moose is in the 60 to 100 range. Moose aren't that tough to kill.

I am still conniving on returning to Alaska.
I have spent 5 years and 5 months in that state, and would consider it the ideal place to work, play, or retire.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
Bwanawannabe, Daktari Ron

Ron,

I know I don't need that much BS to kill a moose. My primary moose rifle is the 35 whelen ackley, if a 250 a-frame leaving the muzzle at 2700 fps won't do it, a bigger gun certainly isn't the answer.

I'm not a collector, so if there is a gun in the cabinet it will be one I shoot at the range, and has use in the field. I really can't think of a reason not to use the 500 Jeffrey on moose.

Paul H,
Your hot .35 Whelen Ackley Improved load above has a BS Inhibitor value of 80.2. In my opinion this is the perfect moose load. Your .500 Jeffrey would literally knock them off their feet.
BTW, how is the nonresident situation for moose in the coming season? Will a guide be necessary for a nonresident U.S. citizen coming from the lower 48 to Alaska to hunt moose?

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Ron,

The non-res moose situation is a win some, loose some. You don't need a guide, but one or more units have become tier II subsistance, which meens the hunting pressure in the remaining areas will be increased from both resident and non-resident hunters.

Basically the moose population isn't what it once was, either due to predation or hunting pressure, depending on who you talk to, but realistically both. There is still plenty of great hunting left, just depends on how far out you can afford to go.

About stopping power, something for us to think about: There is a well documented story about this tough guy from Alaska who was being mauled by a brown bear. The guy was in excellent shape, strong like a bull, but all he had left was a small knife. He managed to pull it out, and stabbed the bear on the neck numerous times, perhaps damaging a vertebrae.

They fought each other for awhile, but by then the guy's right arm was badly mangled. His left arm was working well, and when the bear was moving towards him one more time, he noticed that it was moving with the head pointed slightly to one side (the neck was bothering the bear). The bear got right in front of him, up close, and he swung his left arm and smacked the bear square in the side of the nose.

The bear dropped like hit by lighting, both front legs under it body, dead! It seems that he had damaged the bears neck to the point that the force of the punch on its nose finished breaking the neck.

The guy survived the attack, but six months later his arm was still numb. He broke his arm in a couple of places when he hit the bear. This is a true story.

A would agree that regardless of gun size, the person behind the gun will decide the outcome. Firearm proficiency, knowing the game like the palm of your hand (with some good luck thrown in) may be more important that gun size. Just read the stories about old hunters who killed lots of the biggest animals around. Not all of them used big gun, did they?

The most dangerous game I hunt? Shhhhhh...! Don't tell everyone, but I only hunt moose in bear country (Alaska). I don't have any experience whatsoever with dangerous game.

[This message has been edited by Ray, Alaska (edited 06-04-2001).]

Ray,
Wasn't that a pocket knife, a folder made by Buck? I think I saw a story about that in Alaska Magazine. The guy killed a bear with a small Buck knife. Amazing. I didn't know the part about the punch at the end breaking the bears neck. That was one tough and determined fellow who didn't have all bad luck that day!

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB