About 6 months ago, the local shop had an old FN Mauser based Browning Safari in .458 Win Mag. It had had a muzzle break and Pachmeyer Decelerator pad installed but was otherwise in very good condition. Apparently, no one wanted it and I assume it had no collector value because of the modifications because the shop owner gave me a good enough deal on it that it had to come home with me that day. I put it in the safe, ordered brass and bullets, and went on with life for 6 months. I finally decided I needed to shoot the thing. So I loaded up a smorgasboard of bullet weights and velocities and took it with me to the deer lease this weekend.

I started with some Remington 405s on SR4759. Very nice. Those will be great for plinking, deer, and probably pigs too.

Then I moved to some Hornady 500s on SR4759. Hmmm. That was a bit of a step up from the 405s but not bad. Maybe the 500s will be a better choice than the 405s for pigs since they are a harder bullet?

Then I tried some Nosler 300s at 2300 fps. The increased velocity sure does kick up the recoil a bit! Clearly, we’re not in 30-06 territory any more. There seemed to be more muzzle blast too. Of course the gun has a brake on it, and I was burning more powder.

Then I tried some Hornady 350s at 2100 fps. That recoil was really getting up there.

Last, I fired one Hornady 350 at 2400 fps. And that was it. Perhaps it was because my shoulder had already been thoroughly tenderized, but that was more than I wanted to shoot.

I’m not sure I really even want to try the 500 grain loads I have prepared. The 350 at 2400 fps was more than enough. What will the 500s be like? I assume that’s a pretty hearty increase from the 350s?

Prior to this, the largest I’d shot was my CZ .375H&H, which I like a lot. But the .458 is clearly a whole nother league. I have no plans for Africa or bear hunting in the future at this point. I think I’ll like this gun for plinking (if a 405 grain bullet can be plinking) fun and some deer and pig hunting. It fits me well and feels good. But the recoil may preclude my shooting maximum loads.

Also, I had never loaded straight-walled cases before. Less is more on flaring the case mouths. The first few looked like bell-bottom jeans.

Last, I went dove hunting later in the day. A 20 gauge shotgun recoils a lot more when you’ve pre-tenderized your shoulder with 458.

Regards,

LWD

Very nice sir. You must post some pics. I fired my first 458 yesterday as well. I traded another member for a lovely Mark X and sent a dozen 510gr Winchester SP's down range. The four-five-eight certainly gets your attention in a hurry.

Another big bore Texan here, and I say just grit your teeth and go for it. Like you, I had some reservations for firing my rifle at full power loads, but I survived. Here's how mine went:

http://discussions.texasbowhun...wthread.php?t=225986

Enjoy!

Most 458 Browning Safari's are about 8 lbs without a scope. That is pretty light for full house 458's. You said you had a break ( not sure how much that helps with a slow slug??
I can tell you mine would light me up, especially since most of these rifles have a 13.5 LOP and I am a natural 13 3/4 - 13 7/8 guy for a scoped gun.
I added a decelerator, one mercury tube and added some lead to the forend, bedded it and added a leupold 1.5 X 5 VX3 on Talley rings and bases.
This is one of the most accurate rifles I own. It weighs a bit under 10 lbs now and recoil is very manageable. It handles excellent! It loves 450 swifts ahead of 74 gr of AA 2230 (about 2270 FPS).

EZ

I hear you on the 458's recoil. I didn't have a big problem with 350's at 2280 fps or 400's at 2200 fps, but did not like 500's at 2100 fps at all! I had it rebarreled, and it is now a 375 Chatfield-Taylor. My rifle is a Ruger M77 MkII and weighs in, with scope, at about 9.5 lbs.

What I found very interesting is that the terminal performance of my 375 seems to be better than the 458. I have shot one water buffalo with each caliber/cartridge and the 375 tore things up better in the chest cavity than the 458 did. The 458 just seemed to punch a roughly caliber sized hole in the buffalo.

Anyway I have no regrets going down to the 375 from the 458. Have fun with your new rifle.

If the rifle fits you, then practice a bit at a time with with full house 500 gr. loads, shoot 4 or 5 at the end of each shooting session and before you know it, you will realize that recoil never harmed anyone when properly controlled..

You might need to change the way you hold a rifle? snug it into your shoulder with the trigger hand and a bit more than normal with the forend hand, this will move your whole body and not slap you..I hold a big bore about as tight as I can without creating sighting problems, and now I hold them all that way, as it became muscle memory.

The best way to learn to handle recoil is shoot a 500 or 458 Lott as described above, then the recoil of a 375 or .416 is so mild that you don't even notice it..Takes awhile, but it works, and when it does sell the 458 Lott!

I was loading those 405 gr Rem JSP @ 2200 for cheap easy shooting practice. The recoiled in my Mauser was about like goose loads in my 3" 12 ga

Check that the pitch of the butt of the stock is correct, and get rid of the decelerator and get the thickest kickeze or limbsaver pad they make.

quote:

Originally posted by TXpitdog:
Another big bore Texan here, and I say just grit your teeth and go for it. Like you, I had some reservations for firing my rifle at full power loads, but I survived. Here's how mine went:

http://discussions.texasbowhun...wthread.php?t=225986

Enjoy!

That's funny.

I got to sample that .458 also. Made the 12gauge I'd been shooting at doves with seem like a .22.

I appreciate y'all's comments. There's some things to think about for sure. The pitch of the butt is an interesting idea. I thought the recoil felt awfully concentrated when shooting it. Like I didn't have it mounted quite right. The bruise and soreness from my .375 is larger. How do you measure or check this?

I must say that to Ryan's credit he didn't want to fire that last round any more than I did but did it anyway. And neither of us was going to touch the full house 500 grain loads. Still not sure I'm going to. But I do like the gun.

LWD

You have a great gun and load to work with. You didn't specify the age of the gun but I have shot many older rifles with less than desirable stock shapes or designs. Check out the Bell and Carlson line of Medalist stocks. They have a full length aluminum bed and good recoil reducing shape. You can get one from Stocky's Stocks for $250 delivered and it will be a drop in job. The B&C Medalist also has a good recoil pad.

If you do not like shooting the heavy bullets then don't. You have nothing to prove to anyone but yourself and should shoot your rifle the way you enjoy to shoot it. I would not own a gun that I wouldn't shoot so go out there and enjoy yourself.

quote:

A 20 gauge shotgun recoils a lot more when you’ve pre-tenderized your shoulder with 458.

There is no point in beating yourself with 500 gr. bullets at 2150 ft/s if you're plinking at deer and pigs.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If the rifle fits you, then practice a bit at a time with with full house 500 gr. loads, shoot 4 or 5 at the end of each shooting session and before you know it, you will realize that recoil never harmed anyone when properly controlled..

You might need to change the way you hold a rifle? snug it into your shoulder with the trigger hand and a bit more than normal with the forend hand, this will move your whole body and not slap you..I hold a big bore about as tight as I can without creating sighting problems, and now I hold them all that way, as it became muscle memory.

The best way to learn to handle recoil is shoot a 500 or 458 Lott as described above, then the recoil of a 375 or .416 is so mild that you don't even notice it..Takes awhile, but it works, and when it does sell the 458 Lott!

Amen! Good advice. And a good rifle, properly fit and held, never hurt anyone. I find that I hold on to rifles tighter, too, though with moderation.

This does bring up a problem that I am facing for my 115-lb wife. We've don't have our 338WM in Tanzania anymore so I am wondering what to offer my wife when the gun safe only has a couple of 416Rigbys loaded to 2800 fps with 350 grains.

I've come up with a formula to download some rounds to an estimated 2500 fps without risking detonation. Will she enjoy 2500fps with 350 grains? It's still a step up from the 338. If we can borrow a lighter rifle we may not need this solution. Otherwise, she may be willing to step up to the challenge. Another answer to most recoil questions is to use the rifle in the field where a little recoil is reassuring rather than attention diverting.

quote:

The best way to learn to handle recoil is shoot a 500 or 458 Lott as described above, then the recoil of a 375 or .416 is so mild that you don't even notice it..Takes awhile, but it works, and when it does sell the 458 Lott!

Sounds like going to football practice in a leather helmet without pads so the hits in the game won't hurt so bad.

I think I'm going to look at the stock first. Does anyone know if this Hogue stock will fit my gun? Thank you.

LWD

That Hogue stock may not be the most beautiful thing out there, but IMHO it is one of the most comfortable stocks you will ever use on a rifle with any significant recoil. It has a great pad on it, and the shape seems to control the effects of recoil extremely well (for me, at least). You should consider the model that has a fell-length aluminum bedding block...it is noticeably heavier and probably a better choice for your purposes.

John

I have a BC medalist on a Mark X .458. It has a mercury tube and I also inlaid some tungsten in the fore end to balance it out and put it over 10 lbs with scope.. Very easy to shoot. The problem you will have with the Browning is the barrel channel. You will have to fit the stepped barrel, probably not that hard if you are patient. But the real problem could be the integral forward recoil lug. The aluminum extends up the fore end, you may be able to get the lug between the aluminum skeleton, but you may need to remove some of the aluminum. Just something to be aware of, it could work easily or you could end up ruining the stock. I dont know if the same holds true with the Hogue.

LWS,
Cute, but the wrong analysis..

None of the big bores will injure you if held properly and this also applies to lesser calibers but to a lesser extent..

The idea is to play a mind game with your brain and create a situation that removes the fear of recoil...It works with you, me , kids and ladies, the best way to over come the fear of shooting a 250 Savage is to shoot the .308 or 30-06 for awhile, do it a bit at a time.

But of course that is up to you, all I am saying is it worked for me and some others who tried it.

Ray, I understand what you're saying. But it's not the fear. It's the pain! It really hurt with the full house 350s. I could make myself pull the trigger. But dang I really don't want to. I think I'll slap a Hogue stock on it and see what that feels like before any more heavier rounds.

LWD

If you are shooting off a bench, wear a PAST pad or put a sandbag between the rifle butt and your shoulder, or do both. If possible, shoot off sticks or in some other posture where you can give with the recoil.

You don't want to develop a flinch, so make it as easy on yourself as possible.

Shoot off of a Milk crate with a 60 pound bull bag on top.I use two past pads on my 416 rem mag this way and have shot 150 times in a day.I like the 416 caliber better.Its my limit on recoil.I shot a 470 capstick once and it kicked way too hard.If you cant handle that 458 sell it and get a 416 you will really like it.I think thats why the 416 is king in Africa these days.

One other solution is to build a shooting table that lets you comfortably rest the rifle at the correct height while standing. Padded rests for both the rifle and the shooters elbows. Helps to tame it just a little. And I'm not getting rid of my .458 Lott. Never put a big buffalo on it's back with the first shot with anything else. and besides, after you get used to it, the .470 is a pussy cat. I can only do about 40 rounds off the bench with the lott before I am wore out. But I am not recoil sensitive.

How much muzzle rise are you experiencing? If the gun isn't re oiling straight back, it's gonna hurt. I built a .458 on a FN Mauser action with a Brownells synthetic stock and a F990 pad and it was a nice shooter with mild recoil. the gun has to come stright back, not wind up at 45 degrees. if you have a bad stock fit or are not "rolling with the recoil" I can understand how it could hurt. Maybe have someone watch how your shooting the gun and see if it's a technique or stock issue. a .458 win is not abig kicker so somethings wrong.-Rob

I sure have enjoyed my 458. I have used some stout 350gr and 400gr loads, but I prefer the lighter loads for fun shooting. I'll not be using anything heavier than 405gr. No need.

Recently I changed stocks from the std Hogue to the full aluminum insert type, which is a lot stiffer stock, and it does add some weight up front. My rifle is rather light for a 458.

I keep doing things to it to make it better, and I think I'm about done. Last weekend I tested loads again to see if the full aluminum block in the Hogue changed anything but apparantly not. It still shoots good groups.

I have several loads that I really like, but one in particular may interest you for deer and hogs. My notes show 60gr H4895 and the Barnes 300gr 458 SOCOM bullet gives about 2000 fps. The load is plesant to shoot, and very accurate in my rifle, which has a short throat. The 458 SOCOM can get about 1800fps with that bullet, so I don't yet want to run them much faster, although they will probably handle it.

Last weekend I had just sighted the rifle in at the range with a 1x4 Leupold, and I was on the way out to the main road when a large black bear crossed the road, and then he just stood there in the bushes looking at me. It was a real surprise, and I wasn't mentally ready to deal with a dead bear, so I passed even though season is in. That guy was so fat his legs looked short, and his belly was close to the ground. He had a big head too.

I'm working on a spring black bear hunt now, but for that purpose, I think I'll go with the 350gr TSX, at about 2300fps.

Here are some pictures:

This is before I had the metal coated


After:


Barnes 300gr SOCOM bullet over 60gr H4895

I appreciate y'all's advice. I'm intrigued by the idea of .416. But I do like this gun, so I'm going to play with it some more. Maybe just a new stock and lighter loads will make it shootable for me. Kinda like a bolt action .45-70.....

Kabluewy, what is the overall length on your 300 gr Barnes load? Can you share your load for the 350 TSX? I'm thinking something like that will be plenty for my needs of whitetail deer and wild pig. The only source of load data for the 458 Win Mag and Lott that I've found for the smaller Barnes bullets is Barnes No. 3, which is data for the pre-TSX bullets. That's probably fine to work with since the TSX have less surface. But if anyone has anything better, I'd appreciate it.

LWD

LWD, here's some advice from someone who got the **** kicked out of him by his 500 Jeffery before I figured it out. No I'm far from an expert, but I have learned a bit from first timer mistakes.

First: get a lead sled for the bench. A 458 Win Mag doesn't kick all that bad so 10 lbs on it should be plenty.

Second: buy a slip on Limbsaver recoil pad and use it from the bench as well

Third: Only shoot from the bench for sight in and load development then shoot offhand! Practice with your lighter kicking rifles offhand too! Too few rifle shooters are good offhand shots. It will help you as a hunter and save your shoulder as well.

Finally get your Length of Pull measured by a good gunsmith and get your rifle measured as well. If your rifle doesn't fit you it will kick the snot out of you, even offhand.


Best of luck with your 458 Win, don't give up on it. Whenever I shoot my 375 Weatherby I put a few down range with my 500 Jeffery first. Then the 375 Weatherby doesn't kick at all lol ...



Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by LWD:
Kinda like a bolt action .45-70.....
LWD

That's the general idea. Much more plesant to shoot, and actually more useful that way. There are very few hunting situations where full blast 458 loads are needed, even in Alaska. The only situation I can think of, outside of Africa, is perhaps having to shoot a pissed off brown bear, but even then something loaded to hot 45-70 levels will do just fine.

Also, the 45-70 is a bitch to feed from a magazine. I have yet to see one of those Siamese Mauser conversions feed worth a hoot, even thoiugh some owners will say the one he owns feeds well - that is until he demonstrates it to me, or lets me try, then lo and behold, it starts misbehaving. Go figure.

OTOH, most actions already set up for a 2.5" magnum will feed a 458 well. And the cartridge is easy to download to match the 45-70.

I'll try to remember to get back with the loads (specifics probably by PM) I've tried with the 350gr TSX. They are written in my notes, and not accessable right now. But those loads far exceed anything the 45-70 can do.

To give a general idea, I tried loads using RL7, AA2230 or H4198, H4895 and perhaps others (can't remember) with the powder charge slightly compressed, with the bullet seated and crimped in the top groove. All the loads tested were way less than book maximums. Max wasn't the goal, instead stout loads, slightly compressed was the goal. Some of the book loads would have to be heavy compressed to get their listed max powder in the case. As I recall, the H4198 or IMR 4198 gave the highest velocity, which also as I recall was near max charge and gave near 2400 fps with the 350gr TSX. They are way beyond plesant to shoot loads for my shoulder. I also liked AA 2230 for those type of loads. I think it's possible to get near 2500fps with that bullet, with more powder compression, but again top vel was not the goal. I actually broke a Leupold 1x4 scope when testing those stout loads. That's when I had iron sights installed.

For reduced loads, H4895 is the choice if within 60% of max, and SR 4759 if you are looking for loads in the 1400 - 1800 fps range. 4198 may be a good choice for reduced loads, but I didn't try it. I think it's been used for cast bullets for many years.

A fun load is with Trail Boss, and Rem 405gr soft nose bullets. I used enough powder to fill the case up to the base of the bullet when seated, without any compression. I estimate 1000 to 1100 fps. I'm sure they will whack a hog or deer very well within 75 yds.

KB