I would post this in the BP or ML hunting forums, but they are discussing such disagreeable topics to traditionalists there that I thought I would ask here.
I'm just wondering if anyone out there is building, shooting or just puttering with a traditional version of an English sporting rifle for deer-size game and larger, probably pre-1865 or so. It needn't be a Samuel Baker belted ball gun with 16 drams and 3-ounce projectile. A lovely 16 bore flint or percussion would fill this bill, or a 12 or No. 10. Any thoughts or discussion appreciated, as it would be a welcome way to ward off the gloom of the January fog.

I was thinking the same thing last year...

There is a guy who advertises in SCI stuff who does custom English and German style big bore rifles, percussion and flint. He goes all the way up to 8-bore. I'll see if I can dig up the contact information.

There are a few manufactered or semi-custom English rifles done. Obviously the Pedersoli Mortimer, and that one company in Oregan that I am forgetting the name of right now makes one. A few other guys like Track of the Wolf, and some others make parts sets so you can build your own.

I'll look at my stuff tonight and can give you contact information then, sorry I'm away from my stuff right now...

There are many such people that are shooting and puttering. I have a 16 bore Lang double fully rifled. On the Doublegun board you can find people shooting H&H or Purdey Paradox guns and many others. A friend is considering selling an 8 bore rifle and I suggested that he try this set of forums if he wants to part with it.

I never tire of showing off my Lang, so pardon my indulgence please:

October Country, builds a few in that pattern, I would prefer their 12 or 20 bore version,, Right now I'm using Underhammer guns,sold an 8 bore and have rebought it from the same fellow,and have a very nice 20 bore,, would like to have one with the twist stepped up just a little,so as to be able to use bore buttons

Fellows: Thanks for the reply, and Brent, that double is simply to die for. I am aware of the rifles that Jim Gefroh builds. He has written about his adventures with flint big-bores in Africa. I am also familiar with the big-bore sporting rifles John at October Country offers. Most of these are beyond my reach financially just now, But I wish someone offered a decent English sporting half-stock inletted for a nice English bar lock and a stout barrel. Joe at The Gun Works will build virtually any barrel, any twist. Pecatonica offers a fully inletted Rigby style target stock, but it is set up for a 1-inch octagon barrel, which I would not trust with heavy loads much beyond .58 caliber.Just wondered if any of you are shooting and hunting with old large bores.

Bill,
Consider buying a Pederoli .54 or .58 double rifle. These are the moose rifles of choice in Ontario where I go occasionally. They may not be 19th century British rifles, but they are fine guns indeed, and I recommend them based on what I have seen of others (and their moose).

Brent

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brent:
Bill,
Consider buying a Pederoli .54 or .58 double rifle. These are the moose rifles of choice in Ontario where I go occasionally. They may not be 19th century British rifles, but they are fine guns indeed, and I recommend them based on what I have seen of others (and their moose).

Also, that Pecatonica "Rigby" is designed to be built with an 18" twist .45 barrel to use .550 gr slugs and 100 gr of powder. They are AWESOME hunting rifles. I use a set up identical to this ballistically, but on an underhammer action for deer and moose. Have yet to even shoot at a moose but it is a true 200 yds rifle for anything that walks.

Brent

Not English but Indian.

12 bore double rifle made in India.

The manufacturer is www.curioushouse.com

The rifles, shotguns etc are exported to the UK.

Good hunting!

Sorry Bill. The closest I could come to that topic would be my Charles Ingram 500 BPE hammer double rifle....not exactly a front loader but way more palatable than those plastic stocked in line creations they're passing off as muzzleloaders!

Thanks guys. Brent: Jeffe has my .58 Kodiak. They're a lot of gun for the dollar, I think.

Since you know about James Gefroh. I'll give you the others I was looking at:

Don Stith in VA makes parts kits for two styles of English half stock rifles, on with a pistol grip and the other with a straight grip, the parts sets run about $600, 804-328-2962. He just moved so he might have a new number now.

Track of the Wolf offers another parts sets for their English stalking rifle again for about $600 or so.

THe place in Oregon, The Gun WOrks, makes an English Sporting rifle for 1,600, http://www.thegunworks.com/

And there is the Pedersoli Mortimer.

Those are the ones I found in my search last year. I think Don Stith's parts set is real nice and a decent price. If I did it thats what I'd go for, but to each their own.

Bill, one thing I would do is get ahold of a "Black Powder Hunting" magazine, there are a few builders listed in it from time to time

Chasseur: Thanks for mentioning Don Stith. I have recentlybeen intouch with him about a Wesson target rifle action. Had no idea he had sporting rifle parts.
Dave: I have a stack of Blackpowder Hunting issues, and will go back through a few.
Thanks.

Bill,

Don's a great guy. He can give you lots of information about English rifles if you call him.

Mehul and Brent, nice pictures! I've enjoyed one of the Pedersoli Mortimer .54 flints for several years as an inexpensive introduction to the wonders of 'rock-it' science. Then came this Richards 14 gauge double rifle - definitely addictive!

Steve,
Nice! What's the twist on the rifling and the regulating load?

Beautiful indeed.
How do you find these?

Brent

Steve,
Truly a work of art.

I was so impressed by Mehul's pic that I have begun to dream of a shikar to Inja. Now that foreigners can hunt pigs (if nothing else . . . yet!) the thought of taking the pith helmet over yonder and picking up one of those Indian made doubles to do it with really has me ticking.

Oldsarge,

RHB and Lynx are monitoring the nilgai hunts that are likely to open up soon in India. The Forest Department in two states already allows farmers to hunt nilgai on crop protection permits and we should soon see licenses issued for these as well to non Indians. If you'd like to come to India on a hunt, just let us know - we are planning one whenever the Nilgai hunts open and you would be a welcome guest. One of the European members here might also join though at the moment he is looking more at hunting in New Zealand in 2006. RHB and I may also invite a gentleman here if he would like to join us - they are already in touch and discussing this among themselves.

The company that makes these bore rifles sells them in England and is not at all far from Lynx's place. We could do a black powder 12 bore hunt if you want and evaluate their rifles in the process. Hard work, mind you, and it would require me to mix cocktails afterwards, but something I certainly look forward to sometime late this year or the next.

Good hunting!

BPSteve,

Absolutely beautiful rifle. You have excellent taste and that is a fine gentleman's gun. Congratulations to you, sir, and good hunting!

Mehul Kamdar,

Have you ever used one of the Indian made ML rifles? Are any being importred to the States? What is the price range and are they safe to shoot with full house loads?

The link to their site was not working when I tried it yesterday.

Hog Killer

Mehul,
Count me in! I am immediately going on-line shopping for a monocle and will have the mustache and beard re-grown in time. Whoo-boy! Tandoori nilgai! Wild boar masala! Kingfisher beer! Gin and tonics!

Classical Indian dance recitals? I fall in love all over again whenever I see one.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Have you ever used one of the Indian made ML rifles? Are any being importred to the States? What is the price range and are they safe to shoot with full house loads?
Hog Killer

---

Hog Killer,

I have not shot any of these rifles and I only came to know of this company after one of the European members on these forums told me about this company as he wanted to import them. I just communicated between the member and the Chairman of the company for some time. The company has a fairly large range and many of their models are not on their website. They also export ceremonial swords to England and continue to make them in ordinary as well as Damascus steel though I have no idea if they make damascus steel barrels for their guns.

What I know about them is that their rifles, muskets and shotguns are exported to England in fair numbers and that every gun they make is proofed at the Indian Ordnance Factories. They are made in 12, 16 and 20 bore as muskets and rifled muskets in traditional styles. The company's owner Gajendra Singh Parihar was interested in exporting them to the USA and if you would like to contact him, I would be more than happy to introduce you to him on e-mail.

Best wishes and good hunting!

Oldsarge,

I just sent you an e-mail. Let us wish that the nilgai hunts are opened up for non Indians very soon and I shall be more than happy to organise things. You know the rest of the gang anyway.

While the tandoori is always fantastic, I would be more than happy to mix traditional Brit cocktails that the Brits have forgotten themselves (or should I say have gifted them to India where we preserve them) and also offer you better beer than the popular Kingfisher brand. Let's look forward to this.

Good hunting!

Mehul and Hogkiller,
I have just finished checking my copy of the Federal Firearms regulations. Under federal law, muzzle loaders are classified as antiques to the degree that they replicate firearms manufactured prior to 1898. The replicas built by Curious House certainly qualify being muzzle-loading and ignited by percussion cap. As "antiques" they fall outside any import regulations that the ATFB enforces. It would seem that one just brings it in, declares the value at U.S. Customs and carries it home. I foresee a website and a small garage-based import business, anyone?

Old Sarge: How about your garage? You seem to know some of the ropes, and with Mehul as go-between you could have a bunch of us all wearing monocles and shooting 12 bore rifles after the vindaloo.

Well, be patient. This spring the garage goes flat to be replaced by two stories with my studio/trophy room on top and my cabinet shop (with wine cellar) on the ground. I'm sure that I could find a corner somewhere in there to do some occasional importing. I'm slowly cleaning out my gunsafe so there will be room to for a little storage of select doubles. Shall we call it Spirit of Khaki: Echoes of the Raj?

Bill and Oldsarge,

I would be more than happy to introduce you to this company. If you want the real thing, a friend who has a huge collection in England and is an authority on British guns, told me something surprising - that in his country you don't need a firearms certificate for BP Express rifles and can buy them without any restrictions whatsoever. I could introduce him to whoever wanted guns from there as well - his website should be up in a few days and I could e-mail the details to anyone interested so that they could talk directly to him.

Please remember to have a drink with me to celebrate if you buy any of these guns.

Good hunting!

No license for BP Express rifles? Really, the ones with cartridge cases? Wow! Even here BP cartridge arms must be sold through FFL holders and are treated as normal firearms for importing purposes. Unless . . . hmmmm, we might get by under the "no commercially available ammunition" clause if we choose our chamberings carefully. I will enquire.

mehulkamdar,
Your frind sounds like an interesting person to get to know.

Can you post the address when he gets the site up or PM me contact information?

Thanks!

Oldsarge/Chasseur,

John's website is up.

Please check out www.empiregunsight.co.uk

If you scroll down the page you would see Antique Caliber or No FAC required against the 500 BPE rifles. FAC is the British Fire Arms Certificate or permit.

Do let me know if you want to contact him and I'll put you directly in touch. He hangs out on British shooting forums but does not come here.

Good hunting!

Mehul, Brent and Sarge, thanks for your kind words. The Richards has slow-twist four-groove barrels that, unfortunately, don't regulate worth a hoot with .690" round balls and between 3-4 drams of black, which is as far as I've pushed it. The right barrel shoots to the sights at 50 yards, but the left prints about 8" diagonally left and low. Each barrel is capable of good groups, though. I've learned to compensate by perching the front sight bead over the right top corner of the rear sight for the second shot; not ideal, but it works.

Nilgai in India?? Be still, my heart! That would be a treat indeed!

BPSteve,

Just read Oldsarge's mail and your post. I'll reply to Oldsarge and we'll work this out as soon as the licenses become available. If all goes well, I should be in LA in mid Feb and we'll meet and plan this over a few beers.

Good hunting!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brent:
Bill,
Consider buying a Pederoli .54 or .58 double rifle. These are the moose rifles of choice in Ontario where I go occasionally. They may not be 19th century British rifles, but they are fine guns indeed, and I recommend them based on what I have seen of others (and their moose).
Brent

---

I have a Pedersoli .54 but it is a round-ball gun. Am considereing a .58 for Minie-ball shooting, or perhaps even the .72, just for fun!

Brent! That Lang is amazing!

Here's my "regulation" load for my Pedersoli .54, .535" ball, 85 grains Swiss FFg. R - L, R - L, at 100 yards:



The secret to regulating the Pedersolis is to choose a bullet, stick with the bullet, then experiment with powder charges until you find one that puts both barrels where you want them. This group was shot with a 2.75X Redfield scope on the gun rather than iron sights.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
Oldsarge,

RHB and Lynx are monitoring the nilgai hunts that are likely to open up soon in India. The Forest Department in two states already allows farmers to hunt nilgai on crop protection permits and we should soon see licenses issued for these as well to non Indians. If you'd like to come to India on a hunt, just let us know - we are planning one whenever the Nilgai hunts open and you would be a welcome guest. One of the European members here might also join though at the moment he is looking more at hunting in New Zealand in 2006. RHB and I may also invite a gentleman here if he would like to join us - they are already in touch and discussing this among themselves.

The company that makes these bore rifles sells them in England and is not at all far from Lynx's place. We could do a black powder 12 bore hunt if you want and evaluate their rifles in the process. Hard work, mind you, and it would require me to mix cocktails afterwards, but something I certainly look forward to sometime late this year or the next.

Good hunting!

---

Mehulkamdar:



Cool! How could one find out more about those double rifles??

Eldeguello,

Their website is www.curioushouse.com though their entire product range is not on it. I have other pictures of replica 2 and 3 line Enfields made by them and could e-mail them to you if you want them. If you would like to import them you would have to speak to the Chairman, Gajendra Singh Parihar. Let me know if you want an introduction but you would have to negotiate with him directly.

Good hunting!