The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores old black powder cartridges (45-90, 45-110, 45-120) with todays powderGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
one of us |
The big draw back with some of the old Sharps rounds is the bullet dia is usually .451,instead of .458, and most of the brass is turned brass, and isn't very strong. The exception is the 45 basic as sold by Huntington Die specialities, could be used with some faily hot loads compared to the old Sharps loads. Of course these could be chambered to use the .458 dia bullet, but special dies would have to be made as well. One wildcat that closely resembles the 45-100 with a water capacity of 92.99 grains of water, is the 458 RCBS which has case length of 2.75", and a water capacity of 100.13 grs of water, and in a good rifle will use a load of 65.0 grs of IMR4064 with a 500 gr bullet at 1900 fps out of a 24" barrel. While the 45-100 is lucky to make 1400 fps with a 450 gr cast from a 28" barrel. I have a Ruger No1, and a D. Pedersoli double rifle that is chambered for the 458 RCBS, and they will get 2150 fps from a 24" barrel with a 65.0 grs of IMR 4064 behind a 400 gr Barnes, or Speer. This is the load for the double rifle, and if one were to use only a Ruger No1 for this chambering, I think he could expect 2400 fps out of a 24" barrel with this round useing the 400 gr bullets, and most likely around 2150 with a 500 gr bullet. This almost duplicates the old 450NE 3.25" The capacities of the different cartridges are: 45-100 .451 92.99 45-100/2.6 .451 87.30 45-100/2.4 .451 79.69 450NE/3.25 .458 136.04 458 WnMg, 2.5 .458 93.29 With the powder capacities of the old rounds, if useing a 458 dia bullet, and in strong brass, some of them could be pushed far above their old days velocities, but most would be hard pressed to compete with the NE rounds, or the 458 Win Mag, in any real way! Fun to play with though! ------------------ | |||
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| <MIKE THE BEAR> |
Dr. John, I've got a 45-120 and a 50-2.5". I agree it might be nice to Hot Rod them but the real issue is the guns that they are chambered in. You don't want to Hot Rod an 1874 Sharps! Virtually everyone you'll talk to will tell you to only use Black Powder. However there are a few Smokless powders that can be used as well. Accurate has one and Hodgden just came out with #777 that shows a 45-120 load as well. ------------------ | ||
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| One of Us |
Dr. John, The other issue to consider is the hardness of brass available for some of these calibers. If the brass is too soft it will not matter what rifle it is chambered in. Mike | |||
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| one of us |
As mentioned from other members, a strong "modern" brass and rifle action are needed for a true magnum load. One option would be to get a recent mfg 1886 and send it to David Clay to have it converted into a 50-110. Now you have a true modern magnum lever action rifle. However, you also need the "modern" 50-110 brass from Starline in order to succesfully completing the packgage. At the end, you would have something that rivals many mondern big bore bolt action rifles. Good luck. Cheers. Ming | |||
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| one of us |
I have a reproduction Sharps rifle in 45-120. My load is IMR 4831 and a 500 grain soft point for a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps. The brass I use is BeLL and I use a Fed 215 primer. I believe that with a faster powder you could bet much more out of this case, but for me the recoil is too much with this load. I usually shoot 500 cast bullets at a less punishing muzzle velocity of 1850 fps. Casey | |||
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one of us |
I also have a Shiloh in 45-120. 3031 and XMP5744 work good with 500 gr Lead RN [This message has been edited by Bob G (edited 05-20-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
HI, MING,I am waiting for my win 86 from MR, Clay. I am getting a 50-110 and I order some brass from starline. The brass is out of order now, but they informed me they will have some in around two weeks, so I have some on back order.I have talk about this round for some time now and pointed to its ability to send a 525 grain bullet at 2200 fps this gives it a ME of 5,600 FPs.This indicates how good this round would work by just looking at the numbers, with in its range of 150 yards or maybe 200 yards or less. I usually get alot of people who just dismiss this round just because it comes out of a lever. If this 525 grain bullet at 2200 fps was coming out of a bolt action everyone would say that will work great on BUFF or big game.I not trying to start a argument, but the numbers speake for them selfs. Thanks,Kev | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
As Ken Waters has said innumerable times, the case capacity of these rounds is just too much for efficient use of smokeless powders. For smokeless, the .45/90 case will hold about all the smokeless one would wish to burn in a .45 caliber case with anything like tolerable recoil. In addition, only a MODERN action like the Ruger would be up to the stress of the pressures!! My Ruger No 1. .45/70 shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2270 FPS with 60 grains of powder, and it gives over 55 ft/lb of recoil!! Any more, and no-one would want to shoot it!! | ||
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| one of us |
Recoil-brain-damaged idiot that I am, I can't figure out what "the case capacity of these rounds is just too much for efficient use of smokeless powders..." means. I trust the .460 Weatherby is not too inefficient. Admittedly the .22-.378 is reported to be somewhat inefficient with a short barrel life, but the .338-.378 is delightful, and slow powder easily allows a slightly compressed load and factory ballistics (111gr. IMR 5010 and 250gr. Sierra at 3050 fps out of 24" barrel). My dabbling with .510-.505 Gibbs is at the early stages, but again slow powder offers a slightly compressed load and a feeble little pop of 2075 fps with a 700 grain FMJ. Next trip out (September?) I'll try something like IMR 4831 and look for more speed. I recall Elmer Keith being quoted as saying something like "Efficiency be d----d, it's results we're after." I wonder if you could expand on the concept quoted above. | |||
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| <Harald> |
Kev, I think Midway is selling some 50-110 brass at clearance prices right now. | ||
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| <eldeguello> |
SDS, of course the .460 Weatherby is inefficient!! Just look how much more powder it has to burn than the .458 Win. to get a mere 500 FPS more velocity with the 500 grain bullet. Almost twice as much! 125 grains vs 75 grains!!I gues it depends on what the definition of "efficient" is!! But the point is, with the big black powder cases, IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE SMOKELESS LOADS IN THE CLASSIC GUNS, the case doesn't have to be cavernous to produce all the pressure and velocity these actions can take. When you put them in a stronger action, of course, the picture changes. Then we're talking more about what the shooter can tolerate, rather than the rifle!! But why chamber a modern rifle for an obsolete, hard to get case, when there are readily available, reasonably priced modern cases that give the desired performance level?? I guess it doesn't have to be practical to be fun!! | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Mac, I have to disagree with you on almost all counts. I use a .45-100 with extruded brass, not turned brass. Indeed you can get any of the .45s or 50s in extruded brass. Starline, Norma, Bell, Buffalo Arms, among others make high quality brass for these rifles. Brass is a nonissue. Bullets in the .45s are almost always .458, not .451. In fact, I use .450 because I do it the old way (see http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html), but even orginal guns are/were loaded with .458 or .459 bullets. It is the norm and I'm the oddball these days. As for the .45-100-450 making 1400 fps, that is rather straight forward. But that said, they won't beat a nitro round - that's why nitro was created. And as for dies, they are readily available from LOTS of people/companies from RCBS to Redding, to Lyman, among others. There is an entire industry devoted to this stuff. If any of you want to do this, it's as simple as finding or rechambering a rifle for this and going at it. But why? If you want a big fast .45- then get a win mag or a lott or .450 rigby or whatever. Brent | |||
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one of us |
I know that .450 Nitro Express could push 500gr bullet with 110gr of VVN 560 at 2500fps from Ruger#1, but what about 450 #2 Nitro Express and Ruger #1 with 30"barrel ? ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
Hi I hot rod a 50-31/4" sharps cartridge. My favorite powder is IMR 3031. In these big cartridges to much space is a real culpret. To get aruond this i go hitec and ad a square and 1 halve of toilet paper. Nothing like a good wipe after each shot. With out the packing you can make scrap iron pretty fast due to hang fires. | |||
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| one of us |
I could never tweek such velocities out of my nice old Win. 86 with any bullet...I shot elk and deer with the 350 gr. Hornady at about 1700 FPS and anything above that stressed the old girl and who in the world would want to cause headspace in a nice old 86 Win.... Some of these guys have a sales pitch and will tell folks anything they want to hear to sell a gun and they oughta be horse whipped for it....but if a customer buys off on that stuff then tough cookies... Like I have said more than once, prove it to me and I'll hunt buffalo with one and post the fine results...but first we must use MY chronograph with a proper SD bullet and meet the criteria. I haven't had any offers from the builders as yet. | |||
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| one of us |
HARALD, Thanks for the tip I will check it out as starline is taking to long. Thanks,Kev | |||
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Moderator |
Atkinson is right... .451 is a pistol bore. the only centerfire that I know of, in a rifle, is the 45lc, as it's also chambered into pistols. .458 +/- is the bore... unless it's been shot a bunch with corrosive primers..... jeffe | |||
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