Is anybody out there routinely using .50 caliber bolt guns on their safaris? I'd love to hear of hunting experiences, observations and comparisons to the "lesser" cartridges tried, enroute to .50 caliber.
Was it truly worthwhile from a performance perspective or, in retrospect, merely as a valuable learning experience?

I am not routinely using .50 bores, but I compared a .500 Jeffery 535gr / 2400 f/s with a .458 Lott 500 gr / 2400 f/s, both with Woodleigh FMJ and soft nose in my Blaser R93. I used both in africa from impala to elephant, having in mind a "one rifle safari". The .458 is much more versatile in that respect. The penetration on ele heads was less with the .500, as my tests indicated. I now exclusively use the .458 and will evtl. put for sale the .500. It is a funny thing to use it, but at the end not as useful as the .458. And over years I never had any disadvantage of the .458 compared to what a bigger bore would do.

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Bwana Nick,
Not everyone can handle a .50 as well as you do, hence they disparage it. You know, that "bore envy" thing. See my post (#41) on the 470 Mbogo thread, "A must read for big bore lovers." The .50 is the ultimate compromise between "whomp" and shootability.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
Bwanawannabe, Daktari Ron

Nick, My "Bwana companion" has a beautiful 505 Gibbs that he loves intellectually but now has for sale. He has used the 470NE and 416 Rem on elephant and is now going to the 458 Lott. He is a recoil junkey so I don't think the "Big Penis Gun" thing, as my girlfriend calls it, has any bearing. He thinks the Lott does the best job.
Combine this with his natural "thriftiness" and then look at the cost of 50 cal brass and you have the answer.

Thanks for your responses guys.

Gee, I must confess to thinking there would at least a few "hardcore" .50 caliber hunters out there. Where is that Tony Sanchez Arino (?) guy when you need him?

Saeed, is Roy still there? How about running this one by him for me?

Art Alphin, you missed your cue!

Nick,
It seems to me, this topic is from the humour fraction. Nobody is hunting with .50 bolt actions, but as we learn from the threads, many are playing around with them. May be that the "hardcore" hunters look at the .50s as small bores and you have to ask, who is hunting with .577, .585 or .700 or other wildcats like my new .750. About TSA, that�s a matter of the commercial aspect which we should avoid.

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Norbert,
Tell us more of your ".750", please.
I still think there must be some .50 caliber African hunting enthusiasts out there. Hopefully we will receive further input.

Norbert:

When you get around to throwing away the 500 Jeffery, let me know.

Will

I have found the 505 Gibbs and the 505 Gibbs Improved to be devastating on Buffalo and on me!! They are probably better than the 458 Lott, but not enough to matter...They both recoil too much for field shooting and returning to battery in my opinnion...

the 404 , 416 etc. seem to get the job done every bit as well until Jumbo comes into the picture and they are better the 40's in a cheeky situation I suppose, and if you can shoot one as well....If like me you get a little jumpy with the Lott or 50 then you are better off with something you can handle. but you guys know that.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
Nickudu,
Good question. The replies your getting are exactly why I went with the 470 caliber. I found the 500 A-Square with full loads was OK to shoot but the recovery to get back on target was too slow. I wanted to stay with 500 grain bullets to keep the recoil in perspective and to go as large as possible with the 500 grain bullet leads to the .475 The 458 Lott and the 450 Ackley are both very good cartridges. After dealing with A-Square for my 500 dies and brass I decided not to get involved with a cartridge which tied me into them. Having properly headstamped brass was a must. To get 2400 fps which the Ackley will reach it is loaded to the max. I don't think the Lott will get there with an actual hunting length barrel of 23-24 inches. Unless you've loaded with a temperature stable powder or have built up your loads in an area that is as hot as where you are going , you will be taking a chance. Therefore 2300 to 2350 is more realistic. This is still plenty whith a bullet that has a sec. density of .341 Your 505 doesn't have this problem which is one of the 50 caliber attributes. That is why with the 470 I figured to make the biggest case possible because you can always download to everything else. When you consider bullet weight, cross-sectional area, velocity,penetration, pressure and energy I thought the .470 was the best compromise. 470 Mbogo

Ray,
As usual, your words ring true. I can not say my "return to battery" capability is not reduced, somewhat, with both my LOTT and
.505. I do feel I can place my shots about as well as with my .416 at buffalo ranges, however.
You know how it is , I'm just going through the processes for myself ... processes you've already experienced.

Mbogo,
Yes, I see your points. Thank you. Have you looked at my .505 data in the Reloading Section? You'll notice I settled on 2330 fps with the 600 grains Barnes S.S. and the 570 "X". I did so, until I can retest at mid summer to verify safe operating pressures.
I may well have to cut back further for my hunting loads. We'll see. At any rate, this load is no more difficult to handle than was my .458 Lott. A custom fitted stock offers as much as a muzzle-break in regard to good field shooting with these heavy calibers.

Thank You All For Your Excellent Response,

Bwana Nick

Bwana Nick,
Believe me, if I could shoot a 700 N.E. that is exactly what I'd be shooting...I don't believe anyone can be overgunned if they can handle the recoil, thats the deciding factor...

I know a lot of boys shooting more big bore than they can handle and won't admit it, they in fact are the majority...but if one can then he should..handy in a charge situation. Don't let anybody tell you a 505 won't turn a charge any better than a 416 or a 404, IT WILL....

I on the other hand cannot as my bursitis is very active after a go around with a bigger than 416...and it get upset with the 416 to a lesser degree.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

My own limit of tolerance and field abilities end with 500grs at 2400fps from my 450 Dakota. I've tried the LOTT and found it coming up a bit short for the reasons mentioned earlier. My own LOTT would do only 2300fps w/o high pressures. I then tried the 500 A-Square and in a 13-1/2 pound rifle the recoil was okay but the rifle was just too much to pack around all day, plus the return to battery was a bit too slow. I never hunted with it so cannot comment on it's effectiveness but have used a 500-3" double and could tell the difference between it and the 470.
All of this lead to me making a 450 Dakota, which for me is the ultimate buffalo/elephant rifle. I can load to any velocity I'm comfortable with and it is truly a devastating round. I would think a 475 A&M or similar would be as well. That said, it is awfully hard to beat the versatality and easy shooting of the 416s!

Ray,
Thanks. That's the most encouragement I've received from a person of experience.

John S.,
Your Dakota loading is obviously a great one and I'll bet it's just as much a handful as my Gibbs. Your last sentence cracked me up, as I'm sure I must have said to myself a hundred times, "Well, I can always just go back to my .416!"

One man that you could email who would have a lot of direct experience would be Geoff McDonald who runs Woodleigh.

I think Bruce Bertram uses a 500 Nitro on a Ruger number 1.

The 500 Jeffrey is said to be noticeably more effectice on the water Buffalo than lesser calibers.

However, I don't know how much of this is "wishful thinking"

Could also be related to using Woodleigh bullets whereas the 416s and 45s would have been used with other bullets.

Mike

Good points Mike,
Guess everyone wants his pet project to prove completely worth the time and money invested. People do seem to see what they want to see and "wishful thinking" is part of the equation. Thing is, one would probably need to shoot scores of buffalo with various cartridges to gain both the experience and the objectivity needed to form a meaningful opinion.

Thanks, Nick

"Wishfull Thinking", I think not, the truth is with calibers and dangerous game as with fighting dogs, the big dog gets the bone every time, end of story.

You can visably see the difference in impact when you hit a buff or elephant with a 500 whatever, than with a lesser caliber, at least some of the time. you can turn a charge with a 500 and not with a 400 although both are wonderfull killers.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Will,

my .500 Jeffery Mauser is already sold, a .500 Jeff Blaser R93 for sale, but it is a hate object to Mauser lovers.

Nick,

the .750 is still confidential, disclosing soon.

Ray,

how and when did you see that difference. I didn�t, when energy are not too different.

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[This message has been edited by Norbert (edited 05-03-2001).]

Norbert

Thanks, but those Blaser things I can't warmm up to. Holding out for a 500 NE double, which is what I really want anyway. I figure it is the minimum for a "stopper".

Will

Norbert,
What do you want dates and times????? I been shooting the big stuff for a long time and it all runs together after a while...I remember seeing a elephant absolutly cave in with a heart shot from a 505..I recall a Buff stopped cold and sitting back on his duff in the beginning of a charge with a 577 N.E....I have seen the 50's turn a charge...These things I have not seen with my 404 or 416..
The 577 always amazed me to no end, but it weighed 14.5 pounds..It was a real gun...

Can you not tell the difference in a 30-06 and a 375 H&H, if so then why can't you tell the difference in a 416 and a 577...I could always tell the difference in a 458 Lott and my 404...They all kill well enough but a Buff just shutters when hit with a Lott...

Perhaps your just not as observant as I am...I don't know.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray -

Both you and Norbert have been around the block a few times, from what I gather. Both of you seem to agree, not disagree, that it is energy that stops a critter.

How about a "second" from Tony Sanches Arino, who had more experience in a year than I will ever have. To paraphrase, his love for the 416 is overshadowed by the fact that the 500 Jeffery will knock buffalo onto their butts.

Will

I have taken only two buff with the Lott so it would be total "BS" for me to declare it better than a lesser cartridge. However, I won't hesitate to say I "think" it was. Both big bulls shuddered big-time when hit, as if to say "ooh sh_t! ... what the hell was that?!" The .458 Lott is a wonderful performer, in my book.

That said, I wouldn't have built my .505 if I was'nt fairly certain it would provide me the next noticable step on the "attention getting" scale. The fact that guys like Ray can tell me I'm on the right track is invaluable to me. I can make effective use of its' power and that's what it's about for me.

Ray,
"a 500 is not a 500"!
It is mainly the energy that stops. I stopped many charges with the Lott, but a .460 Weatherby did it better. (Only stopping, not the best all around cartridge). I saw many shots out of a .500 NE with a bit reduced load. The ele only shaked its head a little, nothing else happened. With a .500 A-Square you would have an exellent stopper, more effective than the Lott. Ergo, a .460 Wea is a better stopper than a lame .500!
But this discussion is unnecessary because, as we always say, the hunter has to compromise between many factors, esp. recoil.

BTW, Schomburgh reportedly couldn�t turn a charge of an elephant with his .600 NE.

Nick,
you were asking about the use of a .500 bolt action. That is the point. A .500 for me makes only sense if goes with a min. 535 gr at 2300 - 2400 f/s. I only know two persons using a .500 Jeff or .495 A-Q. routineously. Both are hugh persons of about 250 pounds.

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[This message has been edited by Norbert (edited 05-05-2001).]

So if it is mainly the energy that stops, will pushing up the velocity get better results than pushing up the weight? To spell my question out as clearly as possible, will a lighter, faster bullet with more energy than a slower heavier bullet of the same calibre and construction stop better?

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Norbert,
I saw a .500 N.E. with reduced loads (1900 fps, as I recall) in use by a party in '99. There were problems. Kills were made but it was apparent, especially to the "PH's", that penetration was lacking on the Ele. A .500 N.E. should employed with velocities as near to design as possible.
The extra 250 fps make it what it is.
From what you say, I gather you feel the 600 grain loading in my Gibbs @ 2325 fps should prove to be a bit more potent than the Lott. I am glad you think so.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 05-05-2001).]

I'm not buying this stuff about the 500 NE not being a stopper (at 2150 ft/s). John Taylor and John Hunter thought it was, both had vastly more experience than any living "PH".

None can be guaranteed stoppers, but ft-lbs are ft-lbs, just shoot the biggest one you can.

Will

Within the practical parameters of appropriate muzzle velocities and bullet weights used for hunting big game, it is meaningless to argue over kinetic energy versus momentum for ranking a load's effectiveness. There is much more to it than that. With the qualification that one must know what the target animal is and what bullet type is being used, one could just as well concoct an index based on kinetic energy or momentum. They are both calculated from the same two numbers: mass and velocity. Momentum and kinetic energy are two sides of the same coin. What matters is what system you are dumping them into. That system is the bullet plus the game. There are a lot of undefinables in the game.

Take your pick, either momentum or kinetic energy will work, it is all in how you set up your interpretation. "Everything is relative, and it depends."

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Good huntin' and shootin',
Bwanawannabe, Daktari Ron

RA,
That last paragraph makes more since than all the posts combined...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com