The streaming video clip from an interview shot at the SCI Convention with Mr. Russell Wilkin, Holland's Technical Director, is now up on the African Hunter website.

Don Heath's Lessons Learned article is also newly up.

http://www.african-hunter.com

jim dodd

Jim,
I am very interrested in the 400 H&H, I just like it, I like the idea of a .411 400 gr. bullet, and I think both the 400 and 465 are good ideas...

But this business about the pressure of the 416 Rem. in Africa is just going too far and it just is not so, at least not with our powders, unless some are overloading it..I have used the 416 Rem. too long to buy off on that. It has to be hype to make the 400 H&H look good with a smear campaign, that is a big mistake IMO, it never works to put down one caliber to justify another.

One has got to realise that the only difference in the 416 and the 400 is one is .411 and the other is .416, that is a whole .005 divided by 2 equals 2.5 on each side, add to that the larger bore is going to create less, not more pressure at simuliar velocities, that is fact, not fiction, although its miniscule...Loading one down and the other up is not a good selling point because I can load the .416 to 2200 FPS and get less pressure than the 400 H&H...

Frankly I doubt that either cartridge will ever be a big success, but I may well build one. and brass will always be available as long as we have the 416 Rem and 375....

Just my call as I differ with Don Heath approach on the subject, where the .416 is concerned..He does have a tendency to make his case any way he can from time to time, but don't we all....

Ray,

I think some things are being put side by side because of the Internet, when they didn't actually happen that way.

Don wrote that article before the .400 H&H was even a rumor, but it just got put up on the website recently. Of course it is sitting right next to a short squirt I did on the Holland cartridges.

There has been a lot or interest in putting the Lessons Learned article on the website, and I expect that is what brought the decision. (I asked for it to happen over a year ago.)

jim

Jim,

Don Heath certainly lets you know how he feels! It is interesting to see how rifle & shooter perform under stress.

I especially liked Don's belief that the safety on right handed M70s is on the wrong side.

Thanks for posting,
Dave

I agree with Ray. When they first made an announcement, I started a thread about the idiocy of such claims. They are dropping the velocity in an identical case by literally a few feet/sec and advertising lower pressure, which is not a problem to start with. In fact, the slightly smaller bore likely jacks the pressure back up to the .416 level.

Trying to sell a product based on ballistic voodoo is a terrible practice. Unfortunately, it usually works. Ever heard of the "short magnum with no recoil" effect?

Art S,

I have interviewed both Russell Wilkin at Holland and Wolfgang Romey on the ammunition he is loading for them. I have two independent sources waiting to do pressure testing of the factory .400 H&H ammunition as soon as I can get some. Neither gentleman is making any outlandish claims IMHO.

These gents really care about what they are doing, and they aren't marketing at all in the conventional sense as understood by US gun and ammunition companies. Holland in particular doesn't want to make a small mistake that will get in the way of market perception of the value of the cartridges.

I interview US company representatives as well, and the difference is marked. When Russell tells me "It will be ready in July", I make sure to ask what year?

With that said I admit to being cranky over the slow pace of progress because I want to finish my articles.

jim

[ 05-14-2003, 18:58: Message edited by: HunterJim ]

HunterJim

I guess my point is that they are doing exactly what you say they want to avoid. Anyone who has any smattering of knowledge can see from the published dimensions that the .400 is nothing but a .416 Remington using a .411 bullet. As I stated before, dropping the velocity slightly for slightly lower pressure will likely be offset by the slightly smaller bore size (slightly being the operative word in all cases). If Holland wants to market a cartridge to get into the currently popular .416 market, I think that's great. It will certainly compliment the great .375. However, approaching it as a "fix" for a supposed .416 Rem pressure problem is not the proper approach. I won't comment on the supposed problem, but the premise that the .400H&H will fix it is ludicrous. Day in and day out, gun to gun, the two cartridges will perform identically. Of that I am certain before any testing takes place. I don't know if Holland backs this approach or it has crept in during the ongoing editorial process, but it will ultimately be detrimental to the reputation of what could be a good cartridge.

I was under the impression that the 400 H&H was tapered and hence a smaller case than the 400 H&H.

On a different part of the article:

"One last, fairly humorous incident occurred which simply confirms my case against Weatherby. An apprentice PH was using a rifle chambered for the .375 H&H. He had a whole pile of ammo given to him by a client, which was .375 H&H made by Weatherby"

Did Weatherby ever make 375 H&H ammo?

With the 416 Remington I am wondering if the so called pressure/extraction problem is rifle related, afterall the 300 Win and 375 H&H are factory loaded to similar pressures. Some years ago I had a Rem 700 Classic in 375 that had extraction problems but it was a chamber problem. It would be interesting to know if the extraction problem of these 416s is difficulty in lifting the bolt handle or difficulty in pulling the opened bolt back. If the latter, then that does happen with some Remingtons due to poor primary extraction on many individual Rem 700s and especially if brass is on the softer side.

While Rem 700s make my skin crawl with their rivoted extractor, fall off in your hands recoil lug and glued on bolt handle (M70 is glued but on a spline), my observation has been that they do in fact work very well.

I often get the feeling that if a Rem 700 or a Weatherby has a problem (especially Wby) then everyone says "that just proves they are shit". However when an M70 has a problem then "that just shows a quality control problem with an individual rifle"

Back to the 400 H&H. If that case is more tapered than the 416 Remington then with a velocity of 2350 f/s (is that the velocity?)with 400 grain bullet of slightly smaller diamter, I think promoting the 400 H&H against the 416 Rem on the basis of lower pressure is an argument that sits upon shaky ground

Mike

[ 05-15-2003, 03:04: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

ArtS,

I was just reading a report by Gregor Woods of Magnum that recent .416 Remington factory ammunition chronographed in Africa gave 2,200 fps. He speculated that this was in reaction to reports of pressure problems. Perhaps one of our AR correspondents can do the honors with current factory ammo and report the details -- I no longer have my .416 Rem.

English gunmakers understand pressure versus temperature very well, they pioneered the "tropical load" for their dangerous game cartridges for use in hot countries. Fortunately current powders are much less temperature sensitive than cordite. Holland is looking for 2,3XX fps MV for the .400 H&H compared to 2,4XX fps MV for the .416 Rem.

In my own experience I took my new .416 Rem M700 to a range here in Southern California, and only got three shots off before the extractor failed. Temperature was about 85 degrees F. That was a rifle new to me from the Remington Custom shop. At the time I thought it was an "infant mortality" problem with the rifle, but perhaps it was one of the pressure excursions Don Heath describes from Rifa.

I am not knowing this.

jim

Jim,

When you say the extractor failed do you mean it "broke" or pulled through the rim of the case. If it "broke" in what manner did it break.

Mike

Not surprised a Rem extractor broke, they break on ocassions...I run my 416 at 2400 FPS and I DON'T HAVE PRESSURE PROBLEMS IN ANY CLIMATE, never have, I can get 2500 plus out of it in 80 degree weather without pressure problems, but I play it safe..If I loaded it at 2350 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet and I have it is extremely mild..Mike, at North Fork scolded me for running them that slow and said I could cook them a bit and get better penitration, but I got perfect bullet performance and killed everything....

Bottom line is I guarentee that a .411 bullet from a necked down .416 will get more not less pressure at the same velocity, that is a proven fact many times over..

The beauty of a a 400 H&H is that wonderful SD of the bullet at a nice 2350 FPS that made the 450-400 such a knocked out killer. recoil is mild as a maidens caress, and shootability is there..Lets push this round for what it is, not knock another great round to get it on its feet, thay will kill it quicker than anything I know of.

Pressure comes from putting to much powder in a case, squeezing that last bit of FPS's out of the cartridge, simple as that..

I have a world of respect for the British Gun makers and for Don Heath and Gregor Woods, but they are either spreading gossip, or flat loading their ammo too hot...As to Remington and their Swift loadings I don't know what that is about, they cooked 2377 av. for 5 shots in my gun with a 24" barrel a year of two ago, but anything Remington does is not a surprise as they are up to their a$$ in aligators with law suits for a faulty trigger...They probably were covering their butts with 2200 FPS, but hey thats a good load with a Swift bullet.

Just the way I see it.

Hmmm! Guess I should have filed a patent. I've had a .411/.416Remington since about the time the .416Rem. came out. I have an extensive collection of .41 calibers, especially .41Magnums.
There really is nothing new under the sun. RKBA!

Mike,

The extractor actually broke into two parts.

Ray,

Mike B. sent me some of his pressure data; it is interesting. I think Don and Gregor are reporting, not knocking the .416R to make the .400 H&H sound better.

Joe Mack,

Can you tell us about your .411-.416?

jim

Jim,

Sounds like it broke across the rivot. They don't use the rivot in the 30/06 bolt size, however with a too hot load the extractor will then rotate in the bolt head.

Mike

G'day Mike,
Weatherby did make 375 H&H ammo for a while in the Mid-Nineties.
Send me an E and let me know if the 416 and 264 worked out at the range.

Regards,
Charlie.

Jim,
I agree with you I also don't think they intentionally would do that, if fact I know they would not, but I think there source is wrong...I would like to see that information..and I can supply information to repute it.

To state that a 416 Rem round by Swift at a mild 2200 FPS blows primers is just mind boggleing, I have a lot of experience with the 416 Rem and it is one of the most used calibers in big bores and I have never seen pressure signs any more so than with the 375 H&H, 338 Win, 300's etc. because thats there specs, end of story....

I think they were playing with a gun with headspace problems to blow primers at 2200 or that the problem was someplace else other than the cartridge...

That is the same thing as saying a 30-06 has more pressure than a 35 Whelen or 338-06, it just ain't so unless someone is pranking around at the loading bench...

At any rate it has been a stimulating conversation and a difference of opinnion, not jaded with disrespect..Thats what these threads should be all the time..

Ray,

I do have some history with the .416.

In the late 80s I was building a .416 Taylor, and I had bought a Win M70 Super Grade in .458 WM that I thought to rebarrel. But I sold the M70 and bought an early Remington M700 in .416 RM; I heard about the introduction from George Hoffman actually before the factory announced it ( a story I have related elsewhere on AR), so I promptly ordered one from the Custom Shop. It took a bit of time to actually get the rifle.

The rifle itself was ungainly: gray synthetic stock, shiny metal, weighed under 8 pounds, came with a 20" barrel thick as a pipe and had a balance point forward of the action.

When I fired it with the monolithic solids that came with it, the barrel fouled badly (after having that extractor fixed). I had a couple of mercury recoil reducers installed in the buttstock, and that helped the handling a lot. I also had a post front and ghost ring rear sights fitted and the metal parkerized, and had the barrel cryoed and micro honed. Later I put a scout scope on the barrel. Eventually I sold it. I tried a lot of ideas with that rifle, some of them eventually turned into words in articles.

I only fired factory ammo from that rifle (mostly Remington, but one box of Superior test loads). I wasn't seeing pressure excursions, but I was shooting that rifle in cool temperatures too.

I will have to see if I can get Don to assemble an article on his experiences with this cartridge, and amplifying the Rifa data.

jim

"Anyone who has any smattering of knowledge can see from the published dimensions that the .400 is nothing but a .416 Remington using a .411 bullet."
That statement is not a description of the average H&H buyer, IMO. They are buyers of a "mystique" that surrounds the vaunted halls of H&H. The all knowing and sainted Gods of gundom! Anything that they do is the best, most tested and thought out product available.
Might be, but not in this case. Ray has it right and I'm totally in agreement with his position on this.

/

I'm not the sort of client that Holland & Holland has in mind for it's magazine rifles or new cartridges. In my estimate, they don't make magazine rifles that are as good as top-flight American custom rifles, nor are their new cartridges improving on anything that's already available. In the case of their rifles and proprietory cartridges, both are greatly overrated and grossly over-priced for what you're getting, and I don't see one single reason to invest in either. Maybe some well-to-do dude/pilgrim-type hunter seems something here that I don't see (infatuation with the Holland name mostly, I suspect), but then I'm just a farm-raised boy from Oregon who's always hunted with American-built bolt guns.

I'm with Ray and John concerning .416 Remington pressures. With proper powder selection and loads designed to achieve but not significantly exceed the 2400 fps. level with 400 gr. bullets, high-pressure isn't a practical concern with this cartridge.

One other observation. I've owned quite a few Remington 700's over the years, and most of them have worked well. But I'll also add that the 700 is an action that was built-around post WWII mass-production technology and hasn't been significantly upgrade, improved, or replaced in the years since and they've gotten worse over the last fifteen years, not better.

Most of the time the extraction system works fine, but when it's out of whack, it's really out of whack - sometimes from a broken rivet but often from accumulated brass shavings (another Remington design problem), dirt, gunk, etc. Sometimes the extractor itself is not of the proper dimension, and sometimes the extractor recess in the bolt nose is not machined to the proper dimensions.

One of my friends bought a Mdel 700 "C" grade custom rifle from Remington back in 1972. When he opened the box to examine the rifle, he found that the extractor was popped out of it's recess and would not function. He had it replaced and it's worked fine ever since, but why it was sent out in that condition to begin with is a real mystery.

Point being, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that pressure problems are causing extractor problems with any given Remington 700....

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