A thread with two topics, to wit, bargins in big bores, and the Holy Grail discovered.

I know your thinkn, Uh Oh, Bob's been hitting the Dickel too hard again. But wait, their is a method here.

In a fine thread Titled "Lightweight .375's", way over in African Hunting, many advised that as a start to building a lightweight 375, one should buy a Winny Express in 375 H&H as a donor platform.

This advice will work, but it is expensive. Currently Winny Safari Express's are running $800 and up. Further since to really build a lightweight (8 lbs without scope) 375 H&H, one has to throw away everthing but the action, I thought their had to be a better way.

Well there is. Winchester in their infinite wisdom decided to make both the 7mm STW and the 300 RUM available in their standard (and stainless) model 70's. Since both of these cartridges are either for the most part useless, for their intended purpose or generally "kick the dog" out their buyers, bargins can be found. Even brand spankin' new, I've seen Model 70's in the calibers sell for right around $450.

Now what do get? You get a 375 H&H action (blue or stainless, that will fit a 375 H&H, 416 Remington,458 Lott, 470 Capstick, 404 Jeff, 416 Dakota (the last two with minor bolt face alterations) et al.

Fit the lightweight barrel of your choice, NECG sights front and rear, barrel band swivel, and have you local gun butcher hog out the stock,(or better yet buy a McMillan), and wala, for $1000. to $1500.00 green backs you have a Custom CRF (light weight) big bore.

The end of Part 1:

The finding of the "Holy Grail"......

For more years than I can count, the nutter gun nuts (my self included in that august group) have been searching for a 2.5" case (3.330" overall) that could propel a 45 caliber, 500 grains of lead to 2200 FPS and have enough of a proper handstamp to pass muster with those legends of dilligence, customs officals in African Ports of entry. Yes, it can be accomplished, but most cost like the dickens (think 460 Short A-square), or require major actions mods (think 460 Short A-square).

However, with little fanfare, Dakota has come out with a new cartridge called the 404 Dakota. It is based on the 375 Dakota, and is a 2.5" Improved Jeffrey case. But, Bob you twit you, it is not a 450 bore.

Ah, yes, well, take a 404 Dakota case, open it up to 458 cal, get an appropriate 458 bore barrel and mark it 404/450 Dakota (in the olde British tradition, parent case followed by current bore diameter).

Headstamped 404 Dakota brass, and a barrel marked 404/450 Dakota should pass muster with our sharp eyed customs civil servants.

Of course you could just chamber your 3.330" length action to 404 Dakota, and have big bore (.423") on a 2.5" case, but that wouldn't be any fun. Would it????

Nomex ready for flames,

Thanks,

Bob

[ 10-14-2003, 21:58: Message edited by: Shadow ]

Yo, right on Shadow.

I have been using the cheap 7mm STW's to build 375's, 416's, 404's, 458 Lotts' etc.

Just throw the plastic stock away, unscrew the barrel, and you are ready to start building.

Re your 450/404 Dakota: It was discovered about 23 years ago, called the 450 Howell. Just buy 404 Jeff basic brass from MAST, and a 450 Howell headstamp die, chamber a barrel, make some load and form dies and go shooting. I have a reamer, if you are really serious, shoot me an email. The Howell has a 2.5" case, and other versions exist: 375 and 416. They feed great out of a pre 64 M70.

A variation is also known as the 450 Vincent Short, load data on this site, go back to the AR sign in and select Reloading Pages.

Double posted, sorry.

[ 10-14-2003, 22:10: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

John,

As I recall, the 450 Howell is 2.55" long, same body as the 416, but with a longer neck to be cast bullet friendly. It's been awhile since I read the article, but that's how my recolection.

John,

Your right of course, I've known about the Howell's, 450 Vincent, and also the 450 Short G&A (same as the Vincent and Howell Improved shortened 404's, just even older).

But all call for major case forming (yuck, as opposed to one pass through a FL die), and headstamping (tedious, I rather have sharp bamboo spikes shoved under my figernails). Here we have factory brass, with enough of a right headstamp to maybe pass muster.

And thanks, I will shoot you an e-mail, to discuss.

Bob

[ 10-14-2003, 22:41: Message edited by: Shadow ]

Another option for a fairly low cost, lightweight big bore is a used Interarms Whitworth, either 375 or 458. I had a 375 which I liked very much but it did kick a fair amount compared to my ZKK-602 or pre-64 M70, due mostly to its light weight and relatively small butt. I suppose a 458 could be opened up to the Lott, for an even bigger bruiser.

[ 10-14-2003, 23:24: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

I think the Howells need a longer case, but with the same shoulder, to give a longer neck. This allows the bullet to be seated with bullet base at neck/shoulder junction, and case mouth where it belongs, on the crimp cannelure of the bullet. Most actions will take a longer length than the old 3.34" standby of the original '06 rifles.

We are starting with a long case anyway (404 Jeff) so having a longer neck will mean less case to cut away.

[ 10-15-2003, 04:05: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

AND, I do believe the 404 Dakota is a full-length round, COL 3.6", right?

Bwana-be,

Nope, 2.580" case. 3.330 COL, same as the 375 Dakota. The 416 Dakota is a full length 2.850 case, 3.600 COL.

Bob

The Mauser 98 is a lighter action than the M-70 and makes a neat 404 Jefferys, unless thats not enough gun for the cranks, then go to the 458 Lott...Make them up from 8 lbs. to 10, whatever you like....The Whitworth Expresses are still a bargin out there and make a neat 458 Lott...Lots of nice used, customized Mausers just waiting to be rebarelled out there...