Have been loading for my Blaser R8 in 416RM.
I have got downn to 2 accurate loads that shoot exceptionally well in my rifle, both 1/2 inch groups.
350 tsx @ 2550fps with R15
400 tsx @ 2350fps with AR2209

the gun shoots the barnes solids to same poi.

This will be my back up gun/plains game gun with possibility of a buffalo .

The 350 seems ideal , but for buff the 400 no doubt better.

The 350 are going out at 200fps more, so what do you think?

cheers

Nick

Nick,

350's are perfect for what you want to do and will hammer buffalo no problem.

Regards

Leon

I agree, the 350gn are the best all around because of the added velocity. I use the 350's on buffalo with our 416 Rigbys.

If you have access to the 350 grain TTSX I would try it in place of the TSX. The BC will increase from .36 to .44.

Between the 350 and the 400, the 350 has a better trajectory and will hit with about the same energy, maybe even more if you use the TTSX. Under 200 yards there is little difference between the two, but from 200-300 yards the faster 350gn has an advantage of about 3.5 to 4.5 inches less drop and better wind resistance.

I use the 350 TTSX in my 416 RUM and it works very well - better trajectory and equivalent (and even better down range) energy than the 400 TSX. It will work on buffalo; and, although controversial with some, I'd use it on an elephant without worry - but, I load it over 2800 fps.

Thanks for the replies guys, sounds like the 350's will do what I need to.

Cheers

Nick

I am a little late to the party here, but I will add I have taken buff with 350 gr Swift A Frames with my 416 Rem Mag. They performed well with 78% weight retention and no complaints from the buff. One was a bang flop. One went down after 50 yards and required a finisher but was never a threat.

Hi Nick,

Just had my 416RM in Africa for a buff hunt. Used 400gr Hydros on buffalo and 400gr woodleigh softs on impala x 2. One impala @115m and one @ 165m.
Job done.

Cheers,
Mark.

Sorry to be the contrarian, but:

Not a big fan of Barnes TSX; and

Have no idea why anyone wouldn't use the heaviest bullet generally available.

A 400 grain out of a .416 will fill the bill from elephant down to duiker. Why do anything else?

quote:

Have no idea why anyone wouldn't use the heaviest bullet generally available.

A 400 grain out of a .416 will fill the bill from elephant down to duiker. Why do anything else?

This was answered above. The 350 TTSX gives the same penetration as 400 grain lead-expanding bullets and does this with 4-5 inches less drop out over 200-300 yards. Of course, one can go a step further and use the GSC 330 grain bullet with their driving bands for lighter bore resistence, with similar great terminals.
(The CEB's can also work though some 416 Rigby barrels use a 16.5" twist that require extremely light CEB's.)

the reason i posted this is that the 416 is primarily my plains game

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nickh:
The reason i posted this is that the 416 is primarily my plains game gun, with maybe use for a buff.
I am doing a double tuskless hunt and my 600 VC is my primary DG rifle.

With buff, sometimes the shot presented isnt ideal for a double rifle, so a scoped backup is called for.
I did this in Zim a couple of years ago with my buffalo giving one opportunity late in the arvo in thick bush.The scoped 375 allowed pinpoint placement of the shot into the heart at 75m, allowing a quick and uneventful follow up and coup de grace on dark.
i always carry my double, and the tracker my scoped back up, so keep all options open.
if i was just using the 416 solely, i would definitely just load 400's.
The 350 seems better allround for what i will be using the gun for,as seems to be confirmed by others who shoot the calibre more than i.

cheers all

Nick

Not confirmed by me

What part of Africa? You have been before so what distance do you expect to shoot at plainsgame??

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark
I am hunting in ZImbabwe, the Zambezi valley DSA area. Have hunted the last
2 seasons there.
Shots on plains game have been from 50m out to
175m. The shots could be longer in some more open areas, but doubt
More than 250.
I feel that the 400 are preferable if shooting buff/ele etc.
THey maybe a little heavy for impala,warthog and general plains game,
That's why I'm posting the question on the forum to get feedback.

The 350tsx shoot fantastically in my BLaserR8 and at that velocity should
Have a flat trajectory etc.

Cheers
Nick

Be sure to keep a few of the TTSX in the magazine while you fire several shots to see how the tips stand up to recoil. I have seen them break off and they could cause feeding issues in the heavy calibers. You may be OK with your R8 as the mag has a soft material in the front of the box.

In your case as described, I would go for the 350 BX...I would prefer it for cats also..For strictly a buffalo hunt, I still like the 400 gr. BX and 450 gr. Woodleigh PPs for instances. The usual going away shot is normal in buffalo hunting after the first shot and it requires all the penetration one can get..My tests show the 400 gr. BX out penetrates the 350 gr. by a reasonable amount.

I believe the average PH in the Jesse would opt for the 350 gr. as they tend to stop on the off side skin of buffalo more often than not I am told, and have witnessed a couple of times, and in the thick stuff you don't want two wounded buff to deal with..

I had that happen when I shot two bulls with one shot with a 450 gr. PP Woodleigh or 400 gr. Nosler?? and they were not even lined up, the bullet veared off on exit after a pass through, and a small limb was hit. It worked out OK, but could have been trouble and almost was as the first ran in a simi circle got our wind and charged from a distance, I killed him quickly at about 35 yards. The other ran into the high grass and died after Pierre put two shots into him while I kept an eye on the other one, He was facing Pierre in ambush position in the high grass however, but succumbed to Pierre's shots. This was in open vega for the most part, had it been in the high grass, it could have been different I suppose.

I alos would opt for the hollow point Barnes, not the TTSX as I also have seen the tips break off, same with the Nosler BAl. Tip and Accubond. On DG thats not a good thing. Its rare but it happens.

Nothing changed my mind. A 400 grain bullet is perfectly good to 300 yards, just about a 21 inch drop. You can compensate for that.

It's much better up close and personal.

If you are concerned about that, go to .45 or .50 calibre and a heavier bullet.

The designers of the TSX, preferred the 350 on Buffalo. In their experience, it seemed to hammer the buffalo harder.

That's quite an interesting perspective.

Do you have a citation or documentation on that?

It would lead to the idea that the rapidly moving wound creator was more effective than the slower moving wound creator. Both, of course would have similar frontal areas.

In terms of calibre options, we can assume that the designers were primarily working with velocities UNDER the shear speed. The 416 Rem and the SAAMI-loaded 416 Rigby both shoot the 400 grain bullet at about 2400fps, and the corresponding power level for the 350 grain bullet would be about 2600fps or just a shade under. Both projectiles would impact at speeds designed to retain their petals, but the 350 would be moving faster.

Interesting info that they felt the 350 were harder
on the buff. I'm now pretty confidant that I will go with
The 350 tsx@ 2550fps.
It shoots great and, having shot one buff with the 375 h&h and
a 300 tsx without problem, I think the 350 fits the bill quite well.
I will have a look at trajectory next time at the range and see what it does out to 300m.

Cheers

Nick

When I asked Barnes about bullet weights in the .375, .416 and the tech told me to drop down to the 270, 350 and 450s respectively. That applied to the solids as well.This was in a phone conversation, you used to be able to phone in with questions,maybe you still can. The point being, it wasn't a matter of just being able to drop a weight, it was that you were better off with the lighter weight.

Thank you, Dogleg.

I have been rethinking and redesigning my own battery along these lines.

By priorities:

1. the bullet MUST be ACCURATE. Any bullet that gets to the target has the best chance of getting the job done. Number 1 trumps all other numbers in a particular rifle. A 3MOA load might work on broadside buffalo, but it is not good enough for a precise shot should one be needed, e.g., a neck or brain shot. The inherent inaccurary of the load is compounded by the instability of the field hold ('sticks,' 'tree,' 'anthill,' etc.).

2. A corrolary to number 1 is that the bullet must have a 'huntable BC' for hunting in the 200-400 yard range. A .300 BC is minimum for me and not the best for 400 yards. .400 and .500 BC's are definite plusses. On the other hand, 300 yards is a practical limit that covers 98% of opportunities in Africa.

3. A bullet MUST have guaranteed penetration. A reasonable probability of putting two holes in a broadside buffalo is the standard.
(In the past few years with TSX and buffalo, we've had one broadside exit [220 yards, 350 grain TSX .416" at 2675fps muzzle velocity] and one recovered as a lump on the farside skin with petals and full weight [2825fps 350 TSX .416" shot at 110 yards].)

4. With the TTSX and GSC I lean toward limiting the muzzle velocity to about 2800fps and choosing a bullet that does that.
For the 338 that makes the 225 TTSX the choice at .514BC. For 375 the 250TTSX with .424 BC is top, and for 416 the 350TTSX with .444 BC is top. For the 500 AccRel I'm leaning to the 450 gn GSC with a lower BC around .330. I'm still looking at the 360 gn tipped CEB, where petal 'jump' is part of the design.

quote:

Do you have a citation or documentation on that?

Nope, but I can tell you I got it right from the horses mouth, specifically Randy and Connie Brooks. Works for me.

Monolithics, IMO, should weigh less than a standard bullet in that they are long for caliber..If I use a monolithic I always drop down a notch in weitht as the long bullets take up so much powder space in some calibers and I belive these overly long monolithics tend to yaw probably due to incorrect twists in standard barrels, and they also tend to tip over and perform in strange ways on ocassion. Besides all that and most important is the 350 gr. in a 416 Rem will penetrate as much as about any bullet out there, it is a killer on buffalo.

If one wants to go with heavy for caliber bullets then go with a standard premium such as the 450 gr. Woodleigh PP or RN in a .404 or 416, they are a bonded core and they work quite well, same with the 350 gr. .375 H&H, it is an awesome bullet for buffalo at about 2300 FPS..

My understanding is they are long for weight and it has to do with case capacity. My 2 cents

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
When I asked Barnes about bullet weights in the .375, .416 and the tech told me to drop down to the 270, 350 and 450s respectively. That applied to the solids as well.This was in a phone conversation, you used to be able to phone in with questions,maybe you still can. The point being, it wasn't a matter of just being able to drop a weight, it was that you were better off with the lighter weight.

Tanzan:

You and Weatherby would have got along just fine. IMHO that's too much velocity, not enough mass. Do the math.

Not trying to pick a fight, but this is a debate that's gone on for decades. I like heavy bullets. You like speed. We'll never agree.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
My understanding is they are long for weight and it has to do with case capacity. My 2 cents

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
When I asked Barnes about bullet weights in the .375, .416 and the tech told me to drop down to the 270, 350 and 450s respectively. That applied to the solids as well.This was in a phone conversation, you used to be able to phone in with questions,maybe you still can. The point being, it wasn't a matter of just being able to drop a weight, it was that you were better off with the lighter weight.

My conversation with them was regarding a 400 grain TSX that managed to turn 90 degrees in a cape buffalo. It was fired out of a .416 Rigby so it didn't have anything to do with limited case capacity. The issue there was marginal stabilization that may been caused by the slightly lower twist of a Rigby in a CZ. That aside, their position was that penetration was more than adequate with the lighter bullet so the hunter may as take the higher velocity.

I can see limited case capacity being an issue with the .416 Remington and the .458 Win and dropping down a weight suits both purposes.

I've got an email somewhere that actually gave a solid endorsement for using the 350 grain TSX in the .458 for buffalo. I'm going to test that out on a cull to see for myself.

quote:

My conversation with them was regarding a 400 grain TSX that managed to turn 90 degrees in a cape buffalo. It was fired out of a .416 Rigby so it didn't have anything to do with limited case capacity. The issue there was marginal stabilization that may been caused by the slightly lower twist of a Rigby in a CZ. That aside, their position was that penetration was more than adequate with the lighter bullet so the hunter may as take the higher velocity.

Exactly. Stabilization with the 350 grain is better, and this becomes more important with the solids than with expanding bullets. In fact, I'm surprised at the TSX doing a 90-degree turn.

General stability of a mushroom wouldn't explain that, but some kind of damage through hitting a bone or losing the petals on one side might explain it.

Heavier bullets need faster twist true

Maybe More sow with TTSX?

Slinger: LONGER bullets need faster twist. If you look at the Greenhill formula it is bullet length not weight that determines the rifling twist needed to stabalize a given bullet. If bullet weights are equal, the monometal bullet is always longer than a jacketed lead bullet because lead is denser than brass, bronze, etc. Too bad Speer discontinued their AGS series of bullets which were made from a denser material than lead (tungsten?). They would help the slow twist situation with the CZ 550 mag because they would be shorter than the same weight lead jacket bullet.

quote:

They would help the slow twist situation with the CZ 550 mag because they would be shorter than the same weight lead jacket bullet.

This is another reason for recommending the 350 grain monometals over the 400grain bullets. while the CZ 16.5" twist will stabilize the 400 grain bullets, the stability is less and may be considered marginally adequate, not good.

quote:

In fact, I'm surprised at the TSX doing a 90-degree turn.

General stability of a mushroom wouldn't explain that, but some kind of damage through hitting a bone or losing the petals on one side might explain it.

Not near as surprised as I was. It was a twenty yard shot at a broad-side bull. He was crossing a narrow path giving a clear shot in what would have been heavy bush otherwise. The bullet hit the rear edge of the shoulder, hit one rib and ended up in his hip. The petals were all intact, and there was just the tiniest hint of bending.
The follow up was done with solids, as I was still in my "solids down" period.

The reasons/theories why it did what it did are filled with supposition and speculation. One thing that I know for sure is that the one step program of changing over to A-Frames made the reason irrelevant. I also get far more pronounced visual and audible indications of my hits.

Its only due to a curious nature that I'm going to give the CEBs a chance on an August water buffalo cull. I also will have partitions, a few Rhinos, lighter than normal TSXs and my A-Frames to use as a benchmark. Culling is a perfect test for bullets, since very few hunters will pile up enough trophy buff to "prove" anything. Saeed is the obvious exception.

Dogleg,

You may have a real case of deflection. It wouldn't be the first time, leadcore included.

The point, though, is that something apparently redirected the bullet's trajectory. Testing in gel or wet-paper seems to indicate that mushroomed bullets do not self-deflect the way that round-nosed solids would leave bullet-boxes, from Aagard, to Estergard, to Michael458.

Yeah the TTX's are a great example of this. But also heavier which means slower which means spins slower so faster twist means a slower bullet can be spun at a speed to stabilize. This is especially evident in 556/223 applications that I am very familiar with

quote:

Originally posted by bobmn:
Slinger: LONGER bullets need faster twist. If you look at the Greenhill formula it is bullet length not weight that determines the rifling twist needed to stabalize a given bullet. If bullet weights are equal, the monometal bullet is always longer than a jacketed lead bullet because lead is denser than brass, bronze, etc. Too bad Speer discontinued their AGS series of bullets which were made from a denser material than lead (tungsten?). They would help the slow twist situation with the CZ 550 mag because they would be shorter than the same weight lead jacket bullet.