The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 500 NE 3-1/4"Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| <Bill Tompkins> |
AJ, There are about 5 different powders that will get you about 2000 fps. or just a pinch more with a 600 grain bullet. | ||
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Moderator |
IMHO, the NE's are outstanding rounds, when chambered in falling block single shots, and doubles. If you chamber a boltgun in a 500NE, it won't be a classic gun. If you want a 50 cal bolt gun, you can go with a 50/460 wtby (many varients), 500 Jeffrey or a 505 gibbs. If you are looking for economy, the 460 based round is your best bet, will easily achieve the balistics you are after, and is a relatively straightforward job on a 416 rigby action. Hmm, guess that fails for a classic round, anyhow, if you want a classic round, economy is something you simply must ignore. Jeffrey brass is pricey, but in the overall scheme of the cost of the project, is a minor cost, 50 cases will likely last you a lifetime. My jeffrey isn't complete, but I figure the 29 cases I have ought to be plenty to start with, 20 for practice and load work, 9 for hunting. Anything over 416 for tuskers isn't really necessary, but, I understand the desire ;-) | |||
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| one of us |
I�m quite sure Heym of Germany builds such a piece. I could find nothing on the net, but have a catalog at home. They make doubles up to .500 and the Safari bolt up to .600 NE. Quality is reported to be outstanding. Good shooting! H ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
IMHO use the 500 3" shell, less wall length to have sizing hassles with, the ballistics are virtually identical with insignificantly lower pressure. I ran tests with various weight and shapes of bullet when developing loads for my 500 3". The 600 and 570 grain I was pushing out at 2100-2200 fps. However, I settled on a 540gr GS custom @ 2160-2180. Recoil "appeared" significantly better, and I was getting sub 2" groups at 50m with express sights. Penetration on game is awesome, the bullet passes end to end through buffalo. This is a 22" barrel Ruger No 1 custom rifle. While I was considering what calibre to build this rifle, my gunsmith buddy and I spent many hours debating, measuring, calculating things like breech pressures, thrust, metal thicknesses, chamber wall dimensions, ambient african temperatures, PH and other hunters writings and experiences. in fact anything that could influence the finished rifle and its DG purpose.We looked at calibres from 450 through to 600.The penultimate criteria was that it had to be an effective historically nostalgic calibre suitable for a single shot action, specifically the Ruger #1, since I already had the action. We finally decided on the 500 3" NE. I am not sorry! | |||
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| one of us |
It would appear to me the best of the 500's would be a 416 Rigby necked up to 50 cal. Brass and bullets are readily available and it should duplicate the 460 Wby/500 and not have a belt....I've never built one, but I just might. ------------------ | |||
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| Moderator |
Ray, Is there enough shoulder for that? I know the 585 Nyati doesn't have much shoulder, but I think a 50/416 rimless would have even less. It would vastly simplify the work involved, and you'd have the same magazene capacity, and cheaper brass. | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
Paul, You are right about the inadequate shoulder of the 510/416 Rigby. Believe me, as much as I love the 416 Rigby and the 510 bore, I would have done it if it was possible. Somebody was wildcatting the 416 Rigby to 505 caliber, but to do that he was shortening the case maybe, and I still think it would be inadequate and unsafe. Maybe he has discontinued this attempt. Or got sued by a widow? I think the 510/460 Wby or 500 A-Square is the best way to go. The shoulder is tiny but it headspaces on the belt. Sometimes a belt makes sense, like in the 458 Lott. The 495 A-Square is 2.800" long. It could be made 2.850" (or 2.900" like the 500 A-Square is supposed to be by specs) and then it would be a closer match to the 510 Lott concept and close on the heels of the 500 A-Square. That tiny shoulder on the 500 A-Square does function to create a real bottleneck/shoulder demarcation anyway, thus eliminating the ghost shoulder that one deals with in the 458 Lott and 470 Capstick rounds. The nominal 460 Wby case length is 2.913". When it is necked up to .510 caliberand fireformed, the case shortens to about 2.850" anyway. Just look at that Norma-made 460 Wby brass and you know it is the best way to go. How about making your own 510/460 Long and calling it the 510 PH Alas, the 500 Jeffery is my second choice for a .510 bore .475 caliber is the biggest you can safely go on the 416 Rigby case. 470 Mbogo has done that. ------------------ | ||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
The 500 Nitro 3" is the better way to go for sure, than the 3.25". Likely the reason the 3.25" brass is so cheap is that it has a larger volume of production for use in forming other Nitro Express cases, like the 475 NE No.2, 500/450 NE, etc. In a double rifle, the 500 NE 3" will command a higher price than the 3.25", all else equal. ------------------ | ||
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| Moderator |
500-3" is the better of the two 500s, but the value of either one is similar when dealing in vintage double rifles. The 3-1/4" basic is used for most of the common N.E. rounds, but not the 450 or 475 #2 rounds. Those two have 3-1/2" cases. | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
Thank you for the correction, John S. A brain fart on my part. I should have said for example, "like the 500/450 3 1/4-inch Nitro Express, the 500 3-inch NE itself, etc." Anyway, that 3 1/4-inch basic is used for a few others and thus the production volume could make the case price lower. There was a grain of truth somewhere in there. As for the values of the rifles, I really shouldn't comment. Since I don't deal in vintage double rifles, I have only a passing acquaintance, with my concept being: too expensive for me. But if I could afford one, I would rather have the more desirable caliber. Of course the 500 NE 3 1/4-inch is getting to be almost as scarce as hen's teeth, and this would drive the price up for it, especially for those who already have the 3 inch versions cluttering up the gun safes. I stand corrected. ------------------ | ||
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one of us |
If it is a true classic you want, nothing is more classic than a plain old 450 NE 3 1/4", the 500 NE 3",or the 577 NE 3", be it for double rifle, or singleshot! For bolt rifles, there are a couple of the 9.3mm rounds,the 375 H&H,416 Rigby, or 404 Jeffery, are the only ones that come to mind, though classic bolt rifles are not my thing. The Ruger No1 is well designed for use with a 500 NE 3", or infact, any of the classics listed above,be they rimless belted, or flanged! Double rifles, however are better suited to flanged cartridges, of low chamber pressure, like the 577 NE 3", 500 NE 3", or any of the 450s, or 400s as long as a rim is involved! These are well suited to the No1 too! ------------------ [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 10-04-2001).] | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
MacD37, We know you are an expert on the doubles. Wasn't the 500 Express BP the sire of all the Nitro Express/cordite rounds that followed. Wasn't this case simply loaded with cordite instead of black powder to create the Nitro Express proliferation that followed. Was the case the same or was there a difference in the brass such as wall/head/rim thickness? I would like to educate myself on the vintage doubles and dream about owning one of them someday. So far I am basically a ballistic machine afficianado, i.e., gun nut. Could you add some good references. Here is what I have access to at present, as yet unread: Graeme Wright: Shooting the British Double Rifle The John Taylor and Michael McIntosh stuff didn't teach much apparently, except to excite an interest in these works of art, the double rifles. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
quote: To answer your question Berry, the origenal 500 BP, was the predecessor to the 500 BPE, the only difference being the bullet weight,(440 gr bullet/130-140 grs black powder for the EXPRESS) and a bullet weight of 570 gr with approximetly the same powder charge for the 500 3"BP. The 500 NITRO-EXPRESS used a 570 gr soft or solid, in front of 80 grs of CORDITE, for a velocity of 2150 fps, and 5850 fpe, at muzzle! The earliest, was a coiled paper lined brass case glued, or soldered to a solid iron base. This was soon traded for a drawn brass balloon head case , still black powder, then a a soild head drawn brass case, that was the final design for the 500 NE 3" the only difference between then, and now is modern cases are available in boxer primed cases, of much stronger brass alloy. The problem of early folks fireing Cordite loads in BP rifles was a real one, this was shared by those useing the 450 3 1/4" cordite shells in old BP rifles because of the same demensions being used for both. Most early hunters were just that, HUNTERS, not firearms experts, and some got hurt by the rifles, but most got their rifles locked up, and consiquintly got stompped by buffalo or Elephant for lack of being able to reload. You are right, most of the rounds evident today with a 500 as a prefix in their nomenclature,(500/450 NE 3 1/4") are derived from the final turn of the century 500NE case. The 500-450s and the 470, 465, and all came from the 500 case, but that is not the reason they were brought out. They came into existance because of the ban with the 450 dia bullets becomeing illegal in India, and the Sudan. The 500 case was used because it would clean out the old chambers of rifles to be converted, with only the rifleing being cut out of the old barrels, and rerifled to the slightly larger diameter, requireing only re-regulateing. You see most of the large double rifles were used in India, and Cylon, more than Africa, eventhough Africa gets all the credit! The 500 NE 3" is the most that is needed,IMO,by a hunter for anything that bites, scratches, or stomps, though smaller rounds like the 450 NE 3 1/4" is really more suitable for more things. As far as references, you have named some of the best, but most of my knowledge, such as it is, was gained from a lifetime of playing with these beautiful old double rifles, and single shots, as well as reading everything I can get my hands on about them. I would add Truesdale's book: ------------------ | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
MacD37, Outstanding! I thought you were an expert. Confirmed.  ------------------ | ||
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one of us |
And what about this one ?   | |||
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| one of us |
quote: Jiri, without knowing either the diameter of the bullet, or the parent case, it would be a tough call! But it looks like a 500/303 to me! It is deffinetly not on the factory ammo shelves of the local WALL-MART! ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Apparantly in bolt actions the best way to go today is the 505 Gibbs as components are available from several sources and more are becomming available...It is a grand cartridge and I have used it to a limited extent and it is a real sho nuff Buff killer..Keep your eye on this one. The 500 Jefferys is a neat cartridge and better designed for standard actions but its a little hard to get components for it.. In doubles or single shots the 500-3" is the best of the best and the 577 is a dandy round but again its components are scarce... I agree the most practical is the 500/460 wby.....in the 500's. I got out my mics and spec books and apparently it is a correct assumption that the 416 shoulder would be a major problem and would not work... bottom line: America needs a factory 505 Gibbs or 500 Jefferys on a M-70, Ruger 77 and CZ action (CZ for the Gibbs). ------------------ | |||
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| <Adirondack Joe> |
Ray, you said you have had some experience with a 505 Gibbs? How good a killer is it? I know that there are a number of rounds that are buff killers, like a 375, but if I had a big bore, I'd want something that would, well whats the word... "floor" 'em? A caliber that is a proverbial "show stopper" or "hammer of Thor." Would the 505 fit this category? | ||
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| one of us |
MacD37: It was .500 Rafiki, 570Gr bullet at 2420fps from 25" barrel, "factory" Westley-Richards ammo, there is another one "huge",.700/ .577 Nitro-Express, 900gr at 2300fps from 26" barrel  [This message has been edited by Jiri (edited 10-07-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
Anybody here ? | |||
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| one of us |
Joe, The 505 Gibbs is literally the hammer of Thor on anything that walks talks breaths or crawls..... RA and Mac, ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Ray, I keep hearing rumors that CZ is going to put out a .500 or .505 but WHEN IS THE DAMN THING GOING TO MATERIALIZE! I guess Ruger might be the next best bet for one and of course, Winchester will probably want $4000 for one in a custom shop configuration I suppose. Short of the CZ version, building one off an m70 might still be the ticket eh? JohnTheGreek | |||
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| One of Us |
Now that you are finished talking that weird bent of politics, welcome. The M70 is a small ring and generally considered too small for anything bigger than the H&H case, so conventional wisdom would have it that the M70 should not be chambered for 500 jeff or 505 gibbs. Not everyone follows CW. | |||
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one of us |
Hey JTG, Where did you hear that CZ might make a 500 or 505? That would be a blessing to me and a boatload of others in this crowd. I would place my order tomorrow. -Catter | |||
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| One of Us |
Catter, My cash is ready to get plunked down on the barrell for one too! I would have ignored this rumor if it had stayed within the confines of the local gunshop but a buddy of mine repeated it to me about a week ago. He seems to have quite a bit of inside skinny with CZ stuff for some reason. Hope it's true! Seems a rational move for them. They would get quite a few repeat buyers I imagine and wouldn't cannibalize any sales of their .375 or .416 Rigby. 500grains, Thanks, I got a bit absorbed by the political sh!t for a while but have fortunately returned to discuss the happier topics! JohnTheGreek | |||
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