Oh My God!

I just figured out who is " V V a r r i o r "

Talk about tiring. I would say: Pot calling the kettle black.

Significance of thicker jackets:

I have also conducted a test with 9,3 mm copper-jacketed (not gilding metal) Claw bond-core bullets that are made in South Africa - very similar to the American made Hawk bullet. Claw's standard version comes with a jacket wall thickness of 1 mm. As I was not happy with the weight retention ratio in the 9,3 calibre, I ordered it with no cannelure and 2-mm jacketed walls to avoid petals that shear off and to better protect the relatively soft inner lead-core. I shot both versions of the same bullet in my 9.3 x 62 with the same charge of propellant. The wetpack had a 1-INCH dry telephone directory in front and the rest was soaked newspapers that I clamped down in a vice-type framework. It shows that the thinner constructed bullet to be much more susceptible to shear forces and torque. The results speak a thousand words:

Bullet ------------- Muzzle Velocity --- Retained weight --- % retained

270 gr Claw 2 mm --- 2,307 fps ---------- 266.2 gr ----------- 98.6%
286 gr Claw 1 mm --- 2,252 fps ---------- 119.2 gr ----------- 41.7%

The petals of the thin-jacketed bullet all sheared off. I strongly suggest you pay the additional cost for the thicker walled Claw bullet, as the cost of bullets still remain the cheapest item of your hunt. The 2 mm jacketed bullet gave absolutely sterling performance. Andre van der Merwe of Claw bullets will make any bullet weight of your choosing up to 330 grains for the 9,3 or thicker jacket walls on request to customer order.

Up to 9,3 calibre I prefer no cannelure (crimping grooves) on the bullet, as it weakens the jacket affording the bullet the opportunity to tear or fold. Unfortunately with higher recoiling cartridges one has to have crimping grooves to avoid bullets moving farther into the case due to higher recoil that is absorbed by the bullets housed in the magazine. Cutting crimping grooves or perforated cannelures in thin jacketed bullets is only exacerbating an already bad situation. In the case of the Claw bullet, thicker jackets are needed to counter over-expansion, tearing at the cannelure and shearing of petals.

Comparison of 2 mm vs 1 mm walled Claw bullet:



Warrior

Warrior,

Which one penetrated more? That first one looks over expanded to me.

I have noticed that Bullets like the one on the left with the 4 petals make horrific and raged wound channels that bleed well.


I'd also like to know which penetrated further.

.

The left bullet expanded to 2.25x and is ideal for making an effective wound channel.
I can't remember off hand what the penetration was - I have it written down somewhere on my notes.
I seem to remember it was in the region of 45 to 48 cm (17.7" to 18.9").

The second bullet lost more than half of its weight and penetrated less, but cannot remember the distance exactly, I would need to check my notes again.

If a bullet can stay together and penetrate 15 inches plus, I would be quite happy to hunt anything up to eland with it. It has to reach the vitals, punch a nice hole through it. Death is by bleeding to death on body shots, I do not need an exit hole. Most CEB's that expand between 2.2x and 2.5x do not exit on large game. The Barnes-X bullets invariably out penetrate other CEB's that keep their petals as their expansion ratio is mostly only 2x, unless high velocity over expand the the petals so they are pushed back close to the shank.

Angled shots must always be done in a calculated way in my opinion.
CEB's are not extreme penetrators - they are not designed for that - (Mo/Xsa).
I am not one for Texas heart-shots, not for the meat hunter.

I use the Rhino Solid Shank bullet in my 9,3x62 mm most of the time as it yields good results for me and it expands about 2.2x at the velocity that I load for. Here is another typical example of the Rhino's performance in a 35 Whelen.



Warrior

Some failures & sectioned bullets published in the Man Magum magazine by Gregor Woods:



Here we can see the 270 gr Speer Soft Point - another frail bullet for the 9,3 caliber.



Jacket thickness in FMJ's.



Warrior

Excellent pictures...at least you're backing up your words and presenting valuable information instead of the usual BullSh**.

Those Rhino bullets are just what the doctor ordered looks like...I need to try them in my 9.3x62 and 338-06, I don't have a Whelen...guess I need to build one or at least chamber a switch barrel for one of my actions.

There are always newbees coming to a forum without any expertice and the search function seems not too work many times. Reading something as fraught with controversy as this post might give them a lesson or two...at least as far as what to expect from the unwashed masses on this forum.

While anywone who has killed and/or recovered their bullets and found the cup and core bullets wanting in some instances, they STILL kill a lot of game...we all know there ISN'T a perfect bullet.

Penetration and over/under expansion is a relative thing...relative to the game, the shot, the conditions etc, relative to the aspirations of the shooter...relative to a whole lot of parameters that are specific to the one shot and may or maynot translate directly to the next shot...that is more a direct result of salesmanship of the bullet company as ANY advertizing shows.

Besides, EVERYONE, even the experts, needs a lesson now and then.

Luck

There is no silver bullet for all circumstances, and these bullets are not shown here as if none of them can fail, as there could be many imponderables, but premium bullets perform well most of the time IF used within their design specs (ie velocity window).

Connecting heavy bone is one of the things that can play havoc with most bullets or will damage them more than if only flesh was encountered - basically the bullet can change course when it expands into an uneven mushroom or lose a petal against a heavy bone or just be deflected. Invariably bones will be encountered at angles and very seldom will they be hit squarely.

A few more pics of premium grade bullets that performed well - various caliber bullets are shown here. These were just published by Mauritz Coetzee in the latest edition of "Game & Hunt". The Woodleighs in this pic resemble a real mushroom as close as one can get.



In the final analysis, we expect a lot from our bullets when we shoot them at near or over 3,000 fps and we encounter game within 100 paces .... considering that very few bullets were designed to stay together at these extreme striking velocities.

Warrior