I have been working up loads for a Chapuis 9.3x74R but, so far, the loads that work in this rifle include components that I am having problems obtaining - so I am looking for any alternatives that forum members might be able to suggest.

What I want from this rifle is a good premium game load for African plains game, lion, leopard and large deer species. I'd also like to work up a solid load that shoots to the same, or similar, point of impact - just in case!

My rifle loves a diet of RWS 293 TUGs pushed out by 57 grains of Reloader 19 - but both the TUGs and Re19 are often hard to come by.

I am currently playing with the 186gn Woodleighs and ADI powders but if anyone can suggest some other loads I would be very grateful.

Here in Oz, powders have become problematic since our current government went on the offensive against shooters in 1996, and the only brands that are readily available are ADI (naturally) and Winchester. IMR, Alliant and Vihtavouri are also available but supplies are not always reliable and it is necessary to stock up (which often brings us into conflict with the laws governing storage of explosive materials!!!!!)

BwanaBob I have shot my Chapuis 9.3x74R quite a bit. With 285/286 bullets 65gr. of IMR4831 regulates well, I started at 63gr. and worked up. I use this load with 286 Nosler Partion, 286 Woodleigh, and the 285 Hawk .035jkt. With the 270Speer 56gr. of RL15 shoots real good. All these bullets have given excellent performance on wild pigs, The largest @320 lbs was taken with the Speer, and it did excellent. I would not hesitate to use this bullet on elk. Velocity is 2320fps. I am going to use the 286 Nosler on on Black Bear in Sept. because it has given me the deepest penetration, and has the best down range ballistics if I have to shoot 200 to 250 yds, but I hope to sneak close ie. 30 yards or so. I have a scope in the swing/pivot mount and it goes back to zero every time. I like to use mostly Iron sights but the scope helps on precision and lowlight shots [2.5X8 Leupold Heavy duplex]. Barns solids ot X bullets do not shoot real good in my rifle but I have killed several turkeys with the Barns solid. I have not tried the 286 Woodleigh solid yet. Some factory ammo shoots good in my 9.3 also, Norma 286 Alaska, and Superior 286 Woodleigh solids, and softs, 286 Nosler partitions, and their 286 Barns solids, shoot as good as my best handloads. I have been very pleased with my Chapuis. Hope this helps.

I thought the newest Nosler manual had viht. powders and they do. Here is what they show.
Viht N140 start 51.5gr. vel 2132fps.
MAX 55.5gr. vel 2284fps.

Viht N150 start 52.5gr. vel 2193fps.
MAX 56.5gr. vel 2328fps.

They say N140 gave the best accuracy of all powders tested. they also show:

IMR4831 start 60.5gr. vel 2226fps.
MAX 64.5gr. vel 2360fps.

.

N E 450 No2,

Thanks for the info, I'll definitely try some of the loads you have suggested.

There is one issue that I am very curious about, with the Chapuis 9.3, and that is seating depth. Like most European rifles, the Chapuis has a very long free-bore. Where do you seat your projectiles to - out long and close to the rifling or well down in the case? I have been meaning to experiment with a range of seating depths but your experience could save me a lot of ammo.

Despite my continued search for a really good load, I have had some success with my Chapuis and I do have a load for the 286gn Woodleighs that shoots OK (but not with earthshakering accuracy). However, this load did sterling service on a sambar stag a year or so back. It was a quartering shot on a running animal in thick scrub - the right barrel hit him a bit far back but I stayed on him and quickly gave him the left barrel and that was the end of him. This event cemented the value of the double rifle in my mind as the natural pointing qualities of the rifle allowed for easy target acquisition (even after recoil) and the instantaneously available second shot was critical - with any other rifle (except maybe a semi-auto) I would definitely have lost that animal.

I might also mention that I was so impressed with my Chapuis 9.3 that I bought its' big brother; the .470, to make a matched pair and the .470 shoots superbly with very little load development needed.

I seat the following bullets to the listed over all length:
270 Speer 3.712
286 Woodleigh soft 3.700
286 Nosler Partition 3.795
286 Barnes solid 3.622
285 Hawk .035jkt 3.675

I shot my 9.3 the other day and tried something different, I shot the left bbl. first at 100 yards,with scope. the shots struck about 2 inches higher and about 3 inches farther right. After the rifle cooled I shot right then left and the poa was where it was supposed to be. I also shot 65 gr. of IMR4831 with the Nosler and the 285 Hawk at 200 yards. The Nosler's in the right bbl hit at point of aim in a 2 1/4" group, the left bbl. shots struck 2 1/2" right and formed a 2 1/2 inch group. The Hawk's in the right bbl struck point of aim in a 2" group, the left bbl. struck level with the right but right about 3 1/2 inches. I did not have a bench but was shooting off of the roof of the car, so I would consider these groups to be fired from a "hunting" type of rest. I consider these results good and I will shoot these loads at 300 yds before I go Black Bear hunting in Montana this year. The quick handling and fast second shot are what I think makes the double rifle the finest hunting rifle for about 70% of hunting conditions. After I shoot 300 yards I may up that percentage. They make these Chapuis in 7x65, 30-06, and 300Win Mag. I may have to try one of them. Do you have a scope on your 9.3?

N E 450 No2

Thanks for the seating depths - they will give me a start point for my experiments with my 9.3. One other question, that I meant to ask, is do you crimp your loads?

Yes, my 9.3 Chapuis has a Leopold 1.5-5x in EAW mounts - I personally don't like European scopes so I opted out of the Doctor scopes that are usually provided with Chapuis and I sent my own 1.5-5x across for regulation when the rifle was ordered - yes, they probably did think that I was very odd!

The most successful load that I have found for my 9.3 is 57.0 grains of Reloader 19 behind a RWS 293gn TUG and Federal 215 primer. This load shoots just under 2MOA even when the barrels are quite hot. However, I am having a hard time finding both Re19 and the TUGs, hence my search for a new load.

No, I do not crimp my loads for the 9.3x74.I have kept one loaded round in the rifle for several shots and did not have any bullet movement. Now I have a question for you. How many reloads do you get from your brass? I am using Norma brass and I have had case head seperations on the third firing. I have used different lots of new brass as well as different lots of reloaded factory brass. This occurs even if I neck size only. Now I shoot my brass twice and throw it away. This is my only complaint with the 9.3 Chapuis. At about 7 1/4 lbs [no scope], handles like a .410 shotgun,two immediate shots near the power of the 375H&H how can you go wrong?

You can type in 416 Taylor into your search engine. The you will find several different big bore data including 9,3x74. Hope this helps. fws

Good show, gentelmen, this exchange has only bolstered my long time opinion that the double rifle is a viable hunting rifle for general hunting. The 9.3X74R ia a very effecient chambering, both in Africa, and in North America. Like Tony, I like to use iron sights as much as possible, with a double rifle, but the addition of a low powered scope gives the shooter a real advantage in deep woods hunting, or from a blind on game over bait. Most animals, hunted this way, like to come in at dawn, or dusk, where light gathering of a low powered scope is a real asset.

I also have a 9.3X74R double rifle made by Merkel, and so far I have only shot, Sellier& Bellot, 286 gr soft point factory ammo in it, but it shoots very well with this ammo. This is the third double rifle I've had chambered for this round, and It is a perfect combination for North America. The ones I had before was back in the late fifties, and early sixties and the componants were far different than today, so your experiments are a welcome addition to my files!

It is too bad more folks in this country are not useing the double rifle, or this chambering here,more, as Tony says, "HOW CAN YOU GO WRONG?"

My 9.3X74R likes 63.5 grains of IMR 4350 behind any bullet I have loaded in it to date.

These bullets would be:
250 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
270 gr Speer Mag Tip
286 gr Woodleigh SP

I use Norma brass and CCI 200 primers. COL is 3.93".

I am seriously considering trying the 320 gr Woodliegh, and would appreciate any load data anyone may have for it.

SRS

[ 07-27-2002, 21:26: Message edited by: SRS ]

N E 450 No2

In answer to your question, I only have RWS cases and I have a lot of them (several hundred). I haven't been keeping track of how many reloads my cases have been through but I have not lost a single case so far. However, because I have so many cases it is possible that many of my cases have only been through one or two reloads but I am sure that others have been through a lot more. Some of my cases were obtained second-hand so I have no idea how many times they have been reloaded.

SRS, Toto and MacD37,
Thanks for the further info and comments and there is no doubt in my mind that the 9.3x74R/double rifle combination is an excellent hunting outfit.

SRS,
I too have been thinking of trying loads with the Woodleigh 320gn projectiles but I am going to talk to the guys at Woodleighs to see what comments they have on the idea - I'll let you know what they say.

A WARNING: Some of the data I have turned up, and which is included in the data that Toto directed me to, includes loads for the Barnes X bullets. I think that the X bullets are fabulous and I have had excellent results in many rifles but when I used them in my Chapuis is caused the barrels to part from the rib!..........TWICE!

Yes, I had to send the rifle back to the factory twice and I can tell you the French were very rude the second time. They tried to imply that I had been 'playing' with the regulation but when I insisted that I hadn't and they asked what projectiles I had been using they issued a warning to all Chapuis users not to use ANY homogenous projectiles. They claim that the swelling of the barrel, as homogenous projectiles move down the bore, is sufficient to break the soldering along the rib. I asked Barnes about this - but they never, ever answered my queries!

In short, I will never again try any of the homogenous projectiles in my rifle and would advise all over double owners to consider this possible danger to their rifles before selecting any homogenous projectiles.

MacD37 & 450#2

Mac, last year I went to Aus and shot + - 100 buffalo and numerous pigs, a camel and a couple of dozen range bulls. Mostly with my 9.3 X 74. I took over 100 Barnes X and while they shot well, 3 inches at 100 metres, the performance of
Barnes bullets were a joke and actually led to a couple of situations that could have been very dicey. They refused to expand at the velocities of the rifle and acted like solids. Some of the recovered bullets actually looked like they could have been reloaded. I reloaded the brass with the Tug bullet, which to my mind is the best bullet I have ever used in this rifle having used it for years in Africa and other places. I have always found it interesting that everyone wants to build a better bullet but the old Tugs and Tigs are still as good as any ever made. Just like the old calibers. Nothing new that is more useful than those already here.(unless you are a writer and need material)

Next story. The brass was RWS and like 450, head seperation at 3 - 4 reloadings. I don't pretend to know enough to explain it but I have a lot of Browning brass and have never had a problem with it.

The 9.3x74 is the best of the med. bore doubles for worldwide hunting. Lighter and more compact than any of the British calibers except the occasional 360 #2 and equal in power to the 35 Whelan. Not a dangrous game, stopping rifle but good for Bears, Lions, etc. with a decent bullet (read no Barnes X bullets)

Gator1,

I was very interested to see your comment about the TUGs. They still seem to shoot the best in my 9.3 but I have not yet used any of them on game, so have been wondering about their performance. My curiosity has peaked since I have been given the opportunity to stock up on these projectiles from someone who has been forced to get out of the shooting sports (for medical reasons). Apparently, there is a substantial stockpile available but I didn't want to buy up big if they were no good in the field - from your comments that is obviously not the case.

BwanaBob
Bob, The Tugs seem to be vry plentiful over there as the ones I used in reloading were given to me by a 'mate' who has a 9.3x62. That was another rifle I used when there and another great one also.
The 286 Woodliegh is also a very good bullet and Geoff has done a wonderful job of making a quality product.
Can't say the same for Bertram Brass though. Can't even get most of it my rifles because of inconsistant sizing. I have about 100 rounds of 450#2 brass from there and 90 rounds are useless in my Jeffery's.

[ 08-02-2002, 07:41: Message edited by: Gator1 ]

Gator1,

I'll have to shop around some more, it would seem, as I have had an order with one of the biggest gunshops in Australia for TUGs for nearly a year and they still haven't provided one single box!

Fortunately, I am about to obtain a fair quantity from a private source so that will keep me going to a couple of years but I would like to stock up, substantially, as reloading components for calibers such as the 9.3 can come and go quickly on the Aussie market.

Gator1 I keep hearing bad things about Bertram brass...But I have some cases that have been fired at least 15 times. Did not keep count, never expected them to last near that long. Have some with an accurate count at 7 reloadings and they look new. I can't explain it. Why do they not work in your Jeffery? I bought some Westley Richards 450 No2 loads and the rims were too BIG to chamber in my No2 or a buddys No2. I think they screwed up and used cases ment for the 475 No2. What loads shoot good in your Jeffery?

NE 450 #2 (can I call you NE for short?)

I use 109 grains 4831 and Woodleigh bullets. Shoots 4 inside 3" at 100 yards off of my homemade, stand up rest. No crosses. I don't know what it shoots at 200 yards as I can't see well enough to hold the same point, obviously wider but who cares.

The BB is too thick at the base to chamber. I tried miking it and I think that it is .0002 thicker than the Bell Brass I have. I also have the same problem with my .577's. I have a Marcel Thys, an Alex Henry and a Hollis and BB won't chamber in any of them. That brass has thicker walls also. Bell brass works perfectly.

The 475 #2 should have the same size rim as the 450#2. Is it rim thickness or diameter? In the beginning there was some inconsistancy in chamber sizes amongst manufacturers. Could this account for the rim differance?

Hope this helps or is at least informative. Is this where I swear and cuss like some of the other guys?

NE

In reply to an earlier post I said the cases were RWS. My mistake they are Norma. If you will look at your cases you will see a little score line about 1/4 in. above the base. That is where mine detached. Not handy in the bush. It is difficult to get the stuck part out of the chamber without a cleaning rod or something of the sort.

SRS

I doubt if you can get the proper velocity out of the 320 grain for regulation. I do know of two guys in Aus who are loading the 286 gr. Woodleigh in their 360#2s and are 'claiming' 2550fps, .375 Flanged velocities. One fellow had the rifle re-regulated by someone in Darwin, I believe and the other sent his to Liege for re-regulation. They both are very happy with the results.

The 320 grain is deadly in the 9.3x62 and in the Brenneke is a .375 H&H on steroids. I like these little guys.

Gator1 Yes you can call me NE for short. The info from the 2 sources I have show a difference in rim and base demensions between 450 No2 and 475 No2 cases. I am sure this was done to prevent someone from sending a .483 or a .488 bullet down a 450 No2 barrel, William Jackman Jeffery was a cautious fellow.
In CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD
450 No2 base dia. .564 rim dia. .650
475 No2 .576 .666

In A-Square Any Shot You Want
450 No2 .564 .660
475 No2 .580 .675
My cases in 450 No2 measure
New .562 .652
Fired .563 .652
I have had excellent results with Bertram 450 No2 brass.
Try this for seperated case removal, put a brass cleaning brush on a pistol length cleaning rod. If you have a case seperation insert the brush into the chamber past the case mouth and with draw. Hopefully the case will come out. Another method is to get a brass screw big enough to grip the inside of the seperated case wall, insert, twist to "catch" the case in the threads and with draw the case. I have used the brush method on a 7MM Mag I had once.

NE

Now you made me look. I am no machinists but I did grab my German (I hope Ray and the gang aren't listening) calipers and measured for myself. Guess what? You are right, but you knew that. I ass u me d something that a friend told me was correct but alas it wasn't.

Kynoch .475#2 ,450#2

case dia. .578 .562
rim dia .661 .649
rim thickness .078 .078

The problem I had with BB was the thickness of the brass. When you load the bullet the case becomes too thick to chamber at the bullet.

Measured at the mouth. Unfired Brass

BB .014 avg of 5 cases.
BELL .010 " " " "
Kynoch .011 " " " "

The 4 thousands make the round too tight to fit in the 2 3/4 inch case and in the 3" case.

[ 08-03-2002, 08:30: Message edited by: Gator1 ]

Hi guys. I've been following this thread and had to jump in with my two cents worth.

BwanaBob:

Was soft solder separation the only barrel damage to your Chapuis from shooting X Bullets? If so, you're lucky. I'm gratified to hear that Chapuis has issued a warning about homogenous bullets in their rifles. I seem to recall Holland & Holland doing the same some years ago. It's a shame that it has taken so long for the word to get around.

My old bear hunting partner had an exquisite Westley Richards 9.3 X 62 rimless boxlock ejector. Although it suffered from the extraction/ejection problems endemic to rimless chambered double rifles, it was accurate and gorgeous. Shortly before leaving for a black bear hunt, he decided that he needed to try the 285 grain X bullet. I was familiar with homogenous solid damage to double rifles by then and knew what it looked like, but like everyone else at that time, didn't know what to make of the homogenous "soft". I advised him against it. He reasoned that as the X was a "soft" expanding bullet, it would not cause the damage that the "hard" homogenous solids were known for. I argued, but it was his rifle so, we developed a load.

The X was not as accurate as the 300 grain 9.3 Barnes Original that we both had been loading (I used a .400/.360 NE on this hunt which also uses 9.3 bullets) but we found a load capable of rudimentary accuracy. He shot a medium sized cinnamon boar in the chest, as it faced him, at 35 yards. The bullet exited through the left ham. Nice, precise .36 caliber hole through him lengthwise, which dropped him stone dead of course, but no expansion at all.

We were cleaning rifles after we got home when I noticed it. The rifling, recommended to be inside the bore for superior results, was now on the outside. Roughly fifty X bullets down the bores (25 per tube) were sufficient to press the rifling to the outside of the barrels. He sold the rifle not long after. He never would tell what he got for it, I think he was too embarrassed. I'm glad it wasn't my rifle and I'm glad I warned him. But remembering that rifle still makes me sick.

Your experience serves to illustrate that problems mono-metal bullets cause in double rifles are not an "old rifle, soft steel" issue. I imagine that the reason Barnes did not respond to you is that they already know. This is actually a relatively well known problem.

BwanaBob; Mac37; NE 450#2; Gator1:

In regard to Mac's post on the above issue, I think he is absolutely correct. I'll add a footnote to it though. First, consider that returning a fine double rifle to the maker for new barrels will often cost as much or more than the rifle is worth, unless it is a best sidelock ejector or a .577 or.600 boxlock. This is especially true of British doubles. With that in mind consider the possibity that strong "H" section and solid shank bullets (Partitions, A-Frames, Trophy Bonded, etc) may pose the same risk as completely homogenous bullets since they have an homogenous section. Ross Seyfried wrote something about this not long ago. This is akin to a boa constrictor swallowing a hockey puck.

I'll admit that with Woodleigh, Hawk, etc. available, I don't see any potential advantage to mono-metals at all. However, even if such an advantage exists, how can it be worth the economic risk? Besides, the Woodleigh Weldcore SN and the Hawk round tip will do somethink the X won't - expand!

Please forgive this long first post.

Mark

Gator1 and NE 450 No. 2:

In regard to your case life problems in your 9.3s - switch to RWS. I went through this with Bertram and Norma in a .400/.360 Purdey NE. Both were soft and case life short. I switched to RWS 9.3 X 74R for this rifle about 10 years ago. For use in the .400/.360 I trim it from 2.93" back to 2.745" with no other alteration necessary. Other than a handful tossed into oblivion by the automatic case-losers this rifle has on it, I've never discarded one. I never got more than 3 or 4 rounds out of the other stuff.

I started out with .400/.360 Bertram and never got out of the gate. It wouldn't go in the gun or the sizing die. Base diameter of the .400/360 Bertram was .475" compared to .468" for original Kynoch factory. Also, the Bertram shoulder was fully .25" farther back than the Kynoch. I forced a few rounds into the sizing die in frustration, but pulled off the rims trying to get them out. Also tried Bertram .400/.350 as .400/.360, .400/.350 and .350 No. 2 cases are virtually identical in factory dimensions. The .350s base diameter was the correct .468" and fit perfectly. Head separations started on second loading though. I loaded a couple that had no visible bright ring a third time and got complete separtions with both. Tony, you're the only guy I know who has had good luck with Bertram.

Mark

400 Nitro Express

I have used Browning brass exclusively for the last few years because of the seperation problem. I would not be surprised to learn that they are made by RWS as they are made in Europe.

Regarding the transposeing of the rifleing to the exterior of the barrel. This is not limited to Doubles. I saw a Bull Barrel,.308 Sako in Darwin in May that also had the 'rifleing' showing on the outside. I got a very complicated explanation from the gunsmith who had the rifle and although I can't explain it he did seem to say that it was caused by using steel jacketed solids. The rifle was used for culling Buffalo and had been shot quite a bit over the years. He said that the accuracy was not effected at all and the rifle was still a minute of angle gun.

Maybe that is why Steyr puts that silly twist on their barrels, to disquise the rifleing.

400 Nitro Express,

Yes, the separation of the barrels from the rib was the only damage to my 9.3x74R double from shooting X-bullets through it so, after resoldering and re-regulation, it is fully serviceable again. From what I have now heard - I got off lightly!

Hey 400 Nitro Express, glad to see you on the net! Welcome aboard!

ladies, and gentelmen, 400 Nitro Express, (MARK) is one of the most knowledgable people I know on the quirks, and habits of double rifles, I have come in contact with. He shoots his doubles quite well too. I witnessed him hit a running Boar with both shots from a 450/400 3" Hollis double at 100yds for the first shot, cutting a 1" deep groove in the back of it's neck, and the second shot right through the boiler room at 150yds. These shots were taken on a running boar, at night!

I think we can all learn a few things from Mark! Again, welcome abord Mark!

400 Nitro Express. Mark welcome to cyberspace. Thanks for the info you mailed me. It is most informative. I am putting some stuff together to send to you, if I can get some time to do it. Next time ya'll do a Hog hunt down there let me know.
I'll have to admit I have shot Barnes X and Super Solids in my 9.3, and Barnes 300gr. and 400gr. X bullets in my 450/400 with no problems so far shame on me. But in my defense I called Barnes and voiced my concerns, I was "told" there would be no problems. I agree it is not worth the risk. The X bullets in the 400 are devastating on pigs, however, I have not shot game with them in the 9.3...and won't.

[ 08-03-2002, 21:02: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Gator1 You could neck turn that brass and it will work. It is a pain to do but if Bertram is the only source for a particular caliber... at least you only have to turn it once. I just bought some more 450 No2 Bertram brass that is a different lot than my original cases. In time we will see if it is as good as the first lot. I sure hope so. If it is I may have to buy a couple more 450 No2 doubles to wear all this brass out.

Why would anyone use Bertram .475#2 brass, when HDS makes it, of better quality, and much cheaper. I have to use 475#2 brass to make brass for my 500/450#1 Express WR double, and the HDS is very good quality. I have two 20 rd boxes of the 475#2 brass on hand,unaltered, and the quality is right up there with the best money can buy. This brass is made for HDS by Mast technologies I think.

In one of the HDS catalogues it said; 450 No2 COMMING SOON!!! I have used HDS brass in my 450/400 3 1/4. One time I needed to order more and they were out, said it might be a year till they had more. I got some Bertram for the 400 from HDS and so far it has worked fine. I still like HDS better. So far I have yet to lose a case in the two Nitro ctgs. I shoot. Still I use New or maybe once fired brass on a DG hunt. I only hunt with New brass in the 9.3. I will reload some of the RWS brass from a box of factory ammo I have shot and see if its life is longer for me.

The 9,3x74r is an excellent double rifle caliber even for buff. And it is easier to get cartridges...

Safariscorch Tell us about the 9.3 you have used and the types of ammo, shot distances etc.

I have used Norma 201-54.7gr in Norma brass with Nosler 286 gr Partitions. I have a Valmet 412 O/U that shoots 1" per bbl groups and both bbls into 2".