Over a period of time a thing that I have noticed is that Americans seem to experience cracked stocks far more than we do in Austraila.

On the other hand we seem to have far more scope problems.

Certainly the average Australian fires far more shots, but the scope situation still seems to be the same with Americans who fire a lot of shots. Also if were just number of shots then we should be experiencing the broken stocks.

Could it be that we usually shoot in weather that is mild to extremely hot (with rifles often left in the car all day and virtually too hot too touch) and Americans are shooting in weather that varies from mild to extremely cold.

As to scopes, you find keen shooters in Australia, especially those shooting bigger calibers, used fixed power scopes. The Leupold agent always has plenty of scopes that are going back to Leupold.

Could it be that recoil and a scope that is very hot is a bad combination and a stock that is very cold is more likely to crack.

Mike

Mike,

I have wondered this also. I have cracked several high grade english and claro walnut stock on my 416 rigby and 500 mag. Neither of these rifles sees what I would consider extreme cold. I seldom shoot them when its is below 40 degree F. I find that the Rigby will crack the stock through the wrist somewhere between 120 - 200 shots everytime. I have cracked my third stock on this rifle this weekend with 122 shots through it. The 500 has shattered a claro walnut stock in only 20 shot. In the 500 I am shooting 570 grain Woodleighs at 2400 fps. The 416 Rigby is loaded with 350 grain Sift A Frame of 340 grain Woodleighs to 2780 & 2820 fps respectively.

IMHO the stock cracking is a given with the heavy recoiling calibers. I have fired 2000 rounds through two different 458 Winnies and never once damaged a cheap black walnut stock. Same can be said with my 30-06 and 300 Weatherby. By the way the stocks on the 416 and 500 have been clear with optimum grain structure i.e. grain flows straight through the wrist with a slight upward angle.

Todd,

I would regard 40 degrees F as extremely cold.

The calibers that I have used with avery large amount shots being fired (helped by 20 pound lead shot bag) are 458s, 378 Wbys, 416 Wby and 460 Wbys.

Withthe 458s they have been Model 70s and in 2 cases I had floated the barrel completely, that is, did not use the barrel lug.

No stock problems.

I mostly shoot in warm to very hot weather.

About the only time I would ever shoot in conditions of 40 degress F would be spotlight shooting in wintertime. But in that case we use the big rifles but not for that many shots.

Parhaps it is not just when you shoot but the temperatures the rifle is exposed to throughout the year even when the rifle is not being shot.

However, whatever the reason, Amercia seems to be rough on stocks and Australia is rough on scopes.

Mike

Hi Guys
I have a theory about the cracked stocks.

In America you are more likely to have cental heating and use it longer.
This results in the drying out of the timber in the gunstock.The percentage moisture content of timber is very important.Timber is not meant to be completely dry.
What happens through the winter if you keep your guns inside your centrally heated houses is the wood drys out too much and becomes brittle.
So I would reccomend putting a glass of water in with your guns to provide some moisture to stop the stocks drying out.
This phenomena is recognised with antigues in heated enviornments (lots of Walnut) especially pianos and the glass of water works in the piano so I suspect it will work with gunstocks?
Well thats the theory.

As far as scopes go I agree with Mike and heat

Regards
Deafdog

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deafdog@one.net.au
www.deafdog.one.net.au

Todd,

Try having the next stock drilled from rear of action to under the pistol grip cap, tapped and then coat the hole with steel bed and screw a coated 5/16 steel rod all the way through.

The action does NOT touch the steel rod, it is there simply to strengthen the wrist. It seems to "deaden" the wrist extremely well.

My 416 RemMag is the worst kicker I've done this to. I've shot roughly 500 full-house loads with no problems.

I would go to all composite stocks before I would put a glass of water in with my rifles.

Don

[This message has been edited by Don G (edited 04-30-2001).]

Don,

Thanks for the information regarding the steel rod through the wrist. I was considering that before you mentioned it. If memory serves me Weatherby used to do precisely that (or a variation of it) to their .460 rifles.

I will definitely discuss this with my new stockmaker (the old one passed away a couple years ago - he did great work to).

Todd

Mike,

I suspect that a keen Austrailan hunter (culler?) give there rifle/scope combo more hard work than there American counterparts. I would guess your seasons are longer, you take more game and your rifles see more "field conditions"... and that includes spending time uncased in a 4x4 which is rattling around the bush. I also suspect you guys treat a lot of your gear as "work tools". I think under such conditions you will see scopes fail more often.
As you the stocks,I'm not really sure. Would it be fair to say "on average" our American friends tend to shoot larger calibres?? It is certainly the case compared to the UK.

Pete

Pete,

As to calibers it was big ones I was thinking of. I never had stock problems myself or have others I know.

I think Australians who have large calibers in general use them more than Americans as if we have them we will use them on anything, whereas Americans seem more inclined to use the "right caliber" for the game in question.

I think your assessment on shooting conditions and scopes is a contributing factor.

Since I have been posting on these forums the most noticeable difference I can see between Australia and America in gun equipment is:

1) Australians that are keen shooters and who have been shooting for a long time are far more inclined to use fixed power scopes.

2) The lack of use down here of the 30/06. In that area it is all 270 and 308.

3) When the rifles are about the same price, the Australian nearly always uses a 375 rather than a 338. You would hardly ever see some buy a 338 in a Model 70 Stainless, a Sako or BRNO, always 375. In these cases the rifles in either caliber are about the same price.

What is England like compared to America and Australia.

Mike

I repair composit stocks 5 to 1 over wood in Idaho, invaribly they break at the wrist...Mostly by horseback hunters...

the problem in wood is:
l. much of todays wood is soft English and Claro out of California. Some good and some not so good. Grown on ditch banks with too much water availability.
2. Most of todays wood is not properly dried and is still wet when we buy it..
3. Turkish, English and European Walnut is the only good wood IMHO for rifle stocks..
4. MOst Claro is better known as California Cork wood.
4. Good cured black walnut that has been properly dried is very strong, as is Bastogne. but it is heavy wood..
5. Improper bedding is the no. 1 killer of rifle stocks.

All big bores should be bedded in glass and have a barrel recoil lug (375 up)...releaved at the tang 20 thousands. They should be cross bolted ..Then they WILL NOT split.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

You may have hit the nail on the head with bedding.

Another difference I have noticed with American and Australian shooters is that Australians who use bigger rifles are nearly always very experience shooters and have had a lot to do with rifles. If they are not experienced then they have probably been introduced to bigger guns by someone who is.

This could mean on average that the big bore the Australian owns is far more likely to be bedded correctly than the big bore an American owns.

Mike

Mike,

It would be intersting to compare the makes
of bigbores you are talking about. Would you
say you guys favour more European brands??
If so I wonder if perhaps the Europeans produce "better" rifles in these calibres??
My line of thinking is that the British and
Europeans have had a long heritage of producing what you are terming big bores.
In fact before they were making .375H&H etc, they were shooting stuff like 8 & 4 bore's and .577 ect. Our American friends however
have an industry which was basically based on
pistol and deer calibres which they then expanded into bigbores?? Finn Arrgarrd talks about most of the early .375H&H M70 sent to Kenya having stock failures for these reasons. This really ties into Ray's post where he suggests some less than ideal wood has been used.

As to shooting in the UK, because of our laws, our quarry, and our natural "conservatism" in these matters,
you rarely see anything over 30-06 being used for deerstalking. If you do, it will usually be something like a 9.2x62 rather than a super flat magnum. Heck, the .270Win is known as meat waster in many circles!:-)
As to brands, for stalking, I think its fair to say we favour European rifles. Brno's
and Tikka are popular at the lower price
range, going up through Sako's to the likes of Sauer and Carl Gustaff (sp) representing the top of end factory rifles. American rifles are popular for people who want a working rifle in SS/Plastic...I have Ruger AllWeather for that reason. As to scopes, again once you get to stalking rifles, you find many toped with high end European optics rather than cheap far eastern stuff. Many people pay more for there scope and mount set up than they do for their rifles. I see far more Swarovski scopes on stalking rifles than say Tasco. Leupold is gaining popularity over here but it is not seen as quite in the same class as say Zeiss. As Leupold are imported, the extra
taxs and costs make them far more expensive
than the States. While many scopes are fixed with 6x42mm being a popular size for stalking, a lot of people are also using large objective variables as well.
As to useage, I would say we follow a similar
pattern to you guys. I read some where that
an average British amature stalker takes
around 15 deer a year and that seems about right. I suspect the average American shoots less deer, but has a broader knowlwge and expeirence of different rifles/calibres and probably puts more range time in. I think he is also more likely to be into reloading and small scale gunsmithing such as trigger jobs
and bedding ect. A lot of the British stalking lore is based on German ideas imported in the 1950's& 60's, but with the advent of the Net and sites like this, I think we will see a growing American
influenece. We are already seeing that in terms of specialist American equipement being sold over here. I hope we don't go too
far down that road....

Pete

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 05-01-2001).]

Pete,

By far, the most common big bores out here are 375 and 458 BRNOs. Also lots of "conversions" and "custom" on BRNOs. The BRNO has been popular because of price. Also plenty of people wantimnga 460 Wby or similar use the BRNO and again, this usually cost related

Plenty of Model 70s in 375.

In some ways our component selection and scopes etc. would be similar to yours because we are paying import duty on both American and European products whereas the Americans are only paying it on European. Thus we don't see the price differences that the Americans do.

However, the Leupold would be the most common of the "dearer scopes".

As to reloading and tinkering about with guns, Australians would be the same as Americans. However, I would say a much higher percentage of us reload. For magnum calibers and Wbys hardly anyone would use factory ammo.

Most Australians shoot kangaroos, pigs and goats and of course some rabbits and foxes.

Depending on the shooter and where he goes he may shoot goats, pigs and roos in the hundreds each year or it could be as small as 10 or 20 a year.

Some Australians shoot our imported deer, but there is only a very samll percenatge of them do it.

The average shooter out of the "keen shooters" will go inland and shooting is usually from a vehichle and both daytime shooting and spotlighting shooting.

Pro roo and fox shooters have generally used Kahles scopes. Both optics and the steel tube are the reasons.

The majority of shooters own either a 223, 22/250, 243, 270 or a 308. 308 is more popular than 270 in low price rifles like Ruger or Howa. 270 is more popular than the 308 in Model 70, Rem 700 and Sakos.

Like our American cousins, bench rest type rifles are frequently used in the field by keen shooters.

Mike

Mike,

Another point is the Brnos' are stocked in European Walnut and European Walnut is a much better wood than the American walnuts..Brno uses Turkish and it is the very best even in the lower grades...I would rather have a piece of Turkish sap wood than most exibition qualitity English or Claro..I have had a lot of good California English but I had to let it hang for 10 years or more in my shop.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com