For the big game hunter, there is nothing better than a 416 Rigby. Avoiding Mark Sullivan moments, and hence needing a rifle that can take plains game way out yonder (for which the double rifle is not best) as well as buffalo at spitting distance, there is nothing slicker.

But mainly I drool over the cartridge design:

Slick feeding body taper.

No belt to snag.

Broad 45 degree shoulder, absolutely positive and precise.

The long neck (0.500") which is greater than the caliber of the bullet in length, holds that bullet securely in the bottle neck.

The standard 416 Rigby throat is just 0.300" of leade, and zero free bore. This may contribute to almost universal accuracy in 416 Rigby rifles. I have one that puts 3 bullets into 0.147" at 100 yards.

Bullet weight and bore size, perfect for "enough gun" for anything, and then some. Yes the 375 H&H will do, but the Rigby will do it better, and at lower pressure.

This cartridge is at max case head size to fit a handy rifle without skeletonizing the bolt face and the rest of the action.

Bullet and brass availability is great, and not horrificly expensive. But the cases will last "forever" in the 416 Rigby properly loaded.

It sure is tough to improve the 416 Rigby. I can't think of anyway it can be done.

The 416 Rigby is King of Bolt Actions. I surrender the quest. I have found it.

The best cartridge of all time. Nobody can beat it. Indisputable. End of story.

Just think, no progress in cartridge design for the bolt action big game rifle has been made, or needed, since 1911, when the 416 Rigby was introduced.

Who can dispute this? Sumbuddy who doesn't know?

Anyone attempting to dethrown the 416 Rigby will be scrutinized with this:
web page

[ 10-20-2002, 09:41: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

I have not hunted with the .416 Rigby (yet) but I tend to agree with you about its merits. I recently bought a Ruger M77 in .416 Rigby and today was the first time I shot it at the range. I had to sight in the scope (a Leupold VX III 1.5-5x 20mm) so I just loaded up a few rounds with Hornady solids, Hornady softs, & Nosler Partitions (all 400 grains). I used the same amount of powder in each load with Norma brass and Fed Match (large rifle magnum)primers. Well, what do you know, all of these loads shot to the same point of impact at 100 yards. In fact, 5 Nosler Partitions and 4 Hornady solids all shot into one group of 1.5" at 100 yards (2,450 fps). At the end of my session, I took the scope off and tried the iron sights at 25 yards. Same thing, dead on. I was even able to hit the bullseye at 25 yards while using the iron sights and shooting offhand. I think that this rifle is a keeper and it will definitely be going with me on my next trip to Africa. Last year I hunted everything from klipspringer to cape buffalo with my 375H&H. Next time, I think it will be my .416 Rigby paired with my .338 Win Mag.

Tim

Tim,
That is 2 for, zero against the Rigby for King of the Hill. We are winning. Heck we won in 1911.

So, what powder charge were you using in your Rigby? Was it 105 grains of H-4831? That is THE Jack O'Connor load for 400 grain bullets.

This charge with 380 grain GSC FN bullets gave 2509 fps and that 0.147" three shot group in my Ruger 77 416 Rigby. It was a one shot cape buffalo killer.

The Ruger bedding system on the big 77 Magnum rifles is funky, but it sure works amazingly well.

Kevin Robertson was giving good advice in recommending your rig as a "best" cape buffalo rig. I have also knocked over deer as far as 342 yards with the 416 Rigby and 350 grain X-Bullets at 2700 fps.

RAB,

The three alternatives I would put up are the 375 H&H, 375 Ultra and 416 Wby.

If you want to duplicate 30/06 trajectories, then the 416 caliber needs a muzzle brake if the rifle is to be used from improvised field rests. I think without a muzzle brake, a 375 H&H is about the end of the road. I assume we are talking about the one rifle/caliber here and for everything. 375 Ultra would load back nicely to 375 H&H max ballistics.

I have no experience with the 416 Rigby and maybe the 45 degree shoulder will offset a problem. When very reduced loads are used, rimless cases increase their headspace with each shot, belted cases don't. Hence one reason I am putting up 416 Wby. Since you have a 416 Rigby, fire a primed a case and then reprime and do it a few times and then see what has happened to the case. A 308 or 30/6 will gain a few thou head space each time. Very low pressure loads do not fireform the cases back.

The other plus I would give to the 416 Wby and this is from an Australian perspective, is brass availability. There is always some Wby stuff because of the 30/378, 338/378, 378, 416 and 460s.

But overall, I think it is between the 375 H&H and 375 Ultra with the H&H stepping out if real reduced loads are to be used a lot. My personal belief is that the 404 and 416 died because of extra recoil and no real gain and with the 375 H&h being at a recoil threshold. If full pressure loads are to be used and from the improvides rsts to utilise the trajectory, then I think the 375 Ultra needs a muzzle brake. I think Saaed used hotter loada in his first 375/404 and that rifle had a muzzle brake.

RAB, form your viewing point, I would agree that the 416 Rigby might be the best. However, this only serves to underline why there are no "real bests"

BUT, on the bigger calibers it would appear that majority of opinion and world wide at that, greatly favours the 375 H&H over any of the 40 calibers.

Mike

[ 10-20-2002, 11:22: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike,
See first post above. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. However, I do see the reasoning, and I too would go for the 375 RUM and 375 H&H as alternatives or back up toto the grand 416 Rigby. But the Rigby comes first in design perfection.

416 Rigby ... 2
Other ....... 1

Dagga,

I love my CZ .416 Rigby (have just sent my bolt off to get jewelled). I shoot the woodeligh 410 gr SN's. My rifle is 10 pounds loaded and scoped, it is in my opinion the most powerful calibre one can own and still have a reasonably weighted rifle. Recoil is not excessive and with practice it can be mastered. The next level of power and I reckon recoil becomes an issue. The 410's also shoot quite flat. When I was "choosing my bullet" it was out of the woodleigh 340 gr PP & the woodleigh 410 gr SN's. The 410 gr bullets only give up 2" in trajectory to the 340's when loaded to aprox 2600 fps and deliver more on target energy. You also have the same weighted woodleigh 410 FMJ's should you want to bag a buff etc. I imagine the two 410's would shoot pretty much to the same POI.

Ah NO.

I agree, the case is near perfect.

The 375 therefore, retains that case, penetrates just as well, if not better, and has less time to fire again, due to lower recoil.

I think of all the derivitives of the 375, including the 416, and 458 Ackley, and, I think that the best one is the one you can stand the recoil on, and shoot accurately.

The 375 and 458 are better choices for three reasons, cost of reloading equipment, bullets and brass, are cheaper for the 375, by about half, and much more variety of bullet selection in the 375, which allows lighter bullets, down to 220 grains, at 3000 fps, or so, and 350 grain solids, good for shooting anything that walks.

The 458 caliber is very popular, thanks to the inferior cartridges, like lever gun cartridges, and others, and therefore it has many more bullet choices then the rigby, and again, is both cheaper, and has a wider variety of bullets, allowing you, through bullet selection to match the conditions. The 458 may also shoot Lott ammo, Win mag ammo, I think Ackley Improved ammunition, and this ability to use a wide range of ammunition, and have it work, sets it one step above the 416.
If you can't find ammunition in the 45 calibers, that the 458 Ackley, or Lott, can shoot, you aren't going to find 416 ammunition either.

In short, the 375 and 458 Ackley are cheaper to shoot, offer way more variety of rifles, cartridge selection, and, therefore a way wider
application, from plans game, to woodchucks, to buffalo, the 375 and 458 can do anything the 416 can do, and often at half the price.

s

RAB,

Why do you think the 404 and 416 Rigby died and the 375...................etc

Mike

Oh Ron my man what is happening. I thought that you should know that my 50 Ninja (500 Rigby?) will take over that crown hopefully soon. Don't forget that 416's the other brother 450 Rigby also an awesome cartridge too. I hope that the 416 Rigby, the 450 Rigby, and the 50 Ninja (500 Rigby) will rule the big bore community someday. Have fun.

RAB:

Granted all the design features of the Rigby cartridge but the primary feature of concern to me is what comes out the end of the barrel, i.e., 400 grs, at 2400 fps. As such the 416 Rem can do that and either have more in the magazine or alternatively a lighter weight rifle.

Will

Will,

I don't think the ballistic efficency has anything to do with this. I think that we admire the 416 Rigby just because it is a classic catridge with a tough image. That big case with a 45 degree angle means business however you look at it. Have fun.

DaggaRon,

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly the load I used. Although I did use the newer version of H-4831 which is the SC "short cut" version but it still work wonderfully.

Tim

Ron, I think you are very close to the mark with your praise of the Rigby. I haven't used one on game, but sure had fun with Ruger No.1 I had in the caliber. I continue to be tempted by the CZ.

By the way, something else magical happened in 1911, in the way of a semiautomatic handgun designed by a Mormon genius from Utah ... Some would say it has never been improved upon either!

Gentlemen

I couldn't agree more. I think the 416 rigby is a fantastic and very classic round. To me It's an perfect gun for Africa. My projekt is a 416 rigby or 450 rigby. I'll think I need both.

Mike375, you have no taste at all. How dare you mentioning medium bores like the 375
You can ream of the belt of those wby cases to get a perfectly designed case. Don't forget to run them in a 416 rigby die.

500 ninja? what a name. I suggest 500/416 rigby rimless

/ JOHAN

Don't know about the .416 Rigby being perfect but that "BS Meter" sure is!

PC,
I think we are in agreement on everything. I could use your loads just fine. "Aye."

Socrates,
May you come to see the light. Hang in there, it will come to you as an epiphany some day. "Nay."

Mike,
Sorrowfully I acknowledge your "nay." You are so sensible otherwise, it amazes me!

I don't think the 416 Rigby died, it was just handicapped by the inability to fit into a Winchester M70 or a Mauser M98 in a sensible fashion. Then there was the distraction of the various belted cartridges that took up where the 375 H&H left off.

People are seeing the light now. It sure is making a comeback now, with the reasonably priced CZ and Ruger and Dakota rifles being readily available, all fine guns.

As for the 404, well, maybe Ray can deal with that oddball, but I can't.

Ming,
Yes, your wisdom in emulating the Rigby with your upsized 50 Ninja on the Gibbs case is noted. But your cartridge is treading on dinosaur rifle territory. I think I can count you in favor of the Rigby as best all around cartridge design and a most useful sort of rifle that even a whimp like me can master for any game on the planet. "Aye."

Will,
Granted, the 416 Remington can deliver the load, but it doesn't smell as sweet as the perfect Rigby. Thanks for the nod to the design qualities of the Rigby cartridge anyway. I will note you as an ambivalent "nay." You are still recommending Rigby ballistics in a cartridge that has to try harder to deliver it.

Tim,
Good choice, IMHO. H4831SC meters better and is very close to interchangeable with the standard H4831. It might be 2% slower burning. Even though the granules are shorter, it has a different deterent coating, otherwise it is the same powder. Maybe it is the better of the two. It is a tossup for me. You go in the "aye" column.

Bill,
Thanks for another "aye." Yes, 1911 was a very good year. The Ruger Numero Uno in 416 Rigby is indeed a "best of" item. And as for the CZ 550 in 416 Rigby:

Johan,
Another wise fellow says "aye." I know what you mean with the 416 and 450 Rigby. 470 Mbogo ain't too shabby either. Thanks for the vote.

Total of opinion, including my own vote to start it off: "Is the 416 Rigby King of the Hill?."

Aye: 6
Nay: 3

Nickudu abstains?

Dagga,

I would have to agree with Will, even though the Rigby may be more esthetically pleasing; just brimming over in the nostalgia department. It's interesting to note that J.A.Hunter considered the .416Rigby an "excellent" Lion round but marginal as a stopper on Buff. Well.........................................

Joe

ovis,
We are not talking aesthetics here, nor nostalgia, even though the Rigby has all that too. We are talking function and mechanical perfection. That is the subject at hand.

Nothing will STOP a buff except a central nervous system hit, or letting it bleed to death, a less dramatic kind of stopping.

A ballistic pendulum the size of a buff is not going to be swayed much by anything short of a howitzer on a carriage.

The 416 Rigby is the ultimate hunting rifle to reach any brain at spitting distance or a heart across the draw. Portable and all the trajectory and punch and penetration that is needed, in a most mechanically perfect cartridge casing.

[ 10-21-2002, 01:23: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Aye-sayers: 6
Nay-sayers: 3

I can't count either Nickudu or ovis, because they are being either too diplomatic or too noncommital. Spell it out guys. Which cartridge can dethrone the 416 Rigby? I want to scan the would-be usurpers with the BS Meter.

Saeed's 375/404 wildcat is the only serious contender. But we have to limit ourselves to factory cartridges as challengers.

The 375 RUM falls flat because of it's rebated rim. Bean counters goofed. If only they had made that rim a little bigger and required a little bigger bolt face.

I guess we are down to the 375 H&H versus the 416 Rigby as all-around rifles, and I know which one I would rather use for baboons to buffalo.

[ 10-21-2002, 01:40: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

I have an old 416 Rigby round laying around and the other day I picked it up and thought the the same thing. It is a near perfect case. Just the right amount of taper, a great shoulder and a good long neck. If anything the neck is too long, but hey, it has enough powder capacity so why not. Downside, it takes a darn big action to digest that long, fat cartridge. For quite a while there was a shortage of affordable magnum mausers, and I believe this is why the 375 is a more popular round. As for the 375 H&H, the balistics are about right for quite a bit of game, but the cartridge design is terrible. The 375 has way too much taper, a belt and a shoulder that is too shallow. I know the old argument the excess taper helps feeding, but I have never had any problem with cartridges with less taper. When it comes to 375 make mine the JRS version or better yet drop back to .366 and make it a 9.3x62 or 9.3x64.

I have to side with the 416 Remington magnum, then the 416 Dakota. The Rigby is FAR LESS perfect than these two cartridges. The Rigby problems are:

1.) Too large for all but the Magnum Mauser actions.

2.) Too large a case capacity for full case loads. This condition therefore requires that overly Sllloooowwwwww powders need to be used. This again requires that a HOT primer be used.

3.) Sharp shoulder is not "slick" in a staggered magazine box and is prone to sticking and jamming. A long sloping shoulder is better. Look at a 404 Jeffery or 375 H&H, two of the slickest feeding cartridges on earth.

4.) Excessive body taper. This is a blessing and a curse.

5.) Excessively high thrust force for ballistic performance. This means that the thrust force is greater with the Rigby than it is with the Remington magnum even though both have the same external ballistics.

6.) Higher recoil for ballistic performance.

In short if the desired ballistics are 400 grains bullets at 2400 fps the 416 Remington magnum is PERFECTION incarnate. The fact that the Remington provides one more cartridge in the magazine just adds to the perfection, if that is possible.

The Rigby is an outdated dinosaur. It is no more perfect than a Model T. If I wanted a Rigby I would purchase a 416 Weatherby magnum. This is the modernized Rigby and is what the Rigby always wanted to be but was afraid to be. If the truth hurts I am sorry. This is a free country and you are intitled to your opinions. Just do not flame me for reminding you of the TRUTH!

Axel

Mr MD,
You are indeed wise. The 9.3's are indeed worthy little brothers to the 416 Rigby. "Aye." Let's not goad the 375 H&H lovers. The 375 H&H is sort of so ugly it is beautiful in its own way. Marketing sure put an able performer in the right place at the right time with that one, and it has lived long and prospered. "Aye."

Aye-sayers: 7
Nay-sayers: 3
Noncommital: 2
Idiot vote (you know who): disallowed due to lack of honesty and integrity.


[ 10-21-2002, 02:10: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Dagga, Dagga,

Non-commital? Diplomatic????? You been smoking your namesake again? You need to get out, shoot somemore cardboard cutouts or something. If you think the Rigby is perfect, I'm with you! That's the least I could do being I agreed with Ray when he was all wrung up over the .404Jeff. You guys are just too high strung! Perfect??????
They're all perfect in that, if properly handled by the skilled hunter, they all kill well.

Life is good!

Joe

Socrates must be disqualified to noncommital due to a blip in the BS Meter when I rechecked his post. He couldn't decide between the 375 versus a 458. That is exactly what the 416 does.

Aye-sayers: 7: 416 Rigby preferred
Nay-sayers: 2: 375 H&H,416 Remington
Noncommital: 3: ???
Trollvote: 0: they don't count

Ovis,
Thanks!

Aye-sayers: 8
Nay-sayers: 2 ... (1)375 H&H, (1)416 Remington
Don't know: 2
Troll vote: Ignored

Daggaron, THE TRUTH HURTS! GO AHEAD TRY TO EXTINGUISH THE LIGHT OF TRUTH. GUESS WHAT CAN'T BE DONE!

Axel

Axel - You talking about truth makes about as much sense as Saddam Hussein talking about disarmament and world peace.

Man, you are one stupid dude!

(I wish I had a dollar for every lie you've told.)

POSeur,
It is a shame you pollute this thread. But if I must dirty my hands in throttling you, so be it!

1. The action size is a moot point. I have a handy CZ 550 that is 8.75 pounds from the factory. And really the 404 based cases are stretching the envelope in an M70: windowed magazine box or new widened box or the stock made drop box, etc. to accommodate anything bigger than the H&H based case. Magnum actions are easily had nowadays.

2. Wrong. I can tell you have never loaded a 416 Rigby case. LIAR! The H-4831 loads fill the case nicely for low pressure loads at classic ballistics with the long and heavy bullets. You are really showing your ignorance here. This is not an overly slow powder. It is a great one tried and true since Jack used it in the 270 Winchester, way back, and he used it in the 416 Rigby too. The F215 standard or match primer is perfect, asit is in many smaller cartridges. Never a hangfire.

3. You are just totally stupid on the shoulder issue. The worst that can be said about the shoulder is that some imagine the careless may be more likely to crumple one in, telescoping the neck. It has never happened to me. The Rigby shoulder never impedes feeding, the rounds will feed themselves with a one-handed jerk of the rifle with the bolt open and the magazine full. I am sure you will now be reminded of the one-handed kind of jerking you do when not POSseuring. The real Axel is a JERKOFF.

4. Body taper is not excessive. Just right. Slick feeding. Slick extracting. They just fall out of the chamber after firing, as easily as they went in. This taper is more important than the weak slope shoulder found on some other rounds. That sharp broad shoulder also makes for easier extraction after a more positive and precise stop, when combined with the perfect body taper.

5. The case head is bigger, but when loaded to the lower presures, thrust is not excessive for the actions the Rigby is sensibly used in. I do not want to go into thrust calculations here, as we have seen it all before. If you want to masturbate some more have at it, though it is best done in privacy or in the company of your dog and imaginary friends.

6. Excessive recoil? What kind of whimp are you? That is one of the things that makes the 416 Rigby so good compared to harder kickers that don't handle long range shooting versatility as well. The 416 Rigby is a gentle giant.

The rest of your opinions are not worth wasting anymore time on. You are bogus. You are a POSseur.

I'll go with the .450 Rigby as the case capacity is more perfector for .458, IMHO.

I've only had my Ruger 77 in 416 Rigby for @ 2 months and my wife is beginning to think we're having a love affair . I do love it(not as much as my wife though). Can't wait to draw a bead on Mbogo with it.

Daggaron, it is very obvious that you haven't a clue to the point behind any of MY points. The simple fact that you can get more 416 Remingtons into the same magazine volume WENT RIGHT OVER YOUR HEAD!

I agree with Nickudu. The Rigby case volume is almost perfect for the .458 or .475 bores!

Come clean Daggaron. The only big bores you own that could be classified as DG cartridges are that Ruger 416 Rigby and maybe, here I stress maybe, the Merkel 140, 470 NE. How many buffalo have you shot with that vaunted 416 Rigby, 1! The 416 Rigby WAS and still IS an obscure caliber! It has claimed relatively few dangerous game animals relatively speaking.

Axel

[ 10-21-2002, 05:18: Message edited by: Axel ]

count this as one for and one againt.

Hmm, I'll vote for the 416 remington.. but, if someone want's to trade a cz in 416 rigby for a model 70 in 416 remingtion, I'll change my vote!!

See, it's just the one I have. Unlike Axel, the one I have and load for is MINE.

My 416 feeds like greazed lightening, but I've shoot and handled the cz quite a bit, and it's awesome. Little action honing,sand it here, tune it there, and WOW, it's like it's on ball bearings (rigby)

jeffe

Axel,
!@#$%^&*@#$%^&*

Now where were we?

Nickudu finally made up his mind. "Nay."

Jeffe,
So you would trade your 416 Remington Winchester M-70 for a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby, eh? You can't have it both ways on ultimate cartridge selection. That sounds like an "aye" to me.

mikeh375 is a definite "aye."

Aye: 10 (for the 416 Rigby)
Nay: 3 (one each 375H&H, 416Rem, 450Rigby)
confused: 1
Trolls still don't count: 0

Axel is so stupid it is hilarious! What is this POSseur gaining from his attention here? I guess you have to swat at an annoying nat now and then, but I sure hope I can regain my resolve to ignore this POSseur.

The 416 Rigby is an obscure cartridge, never killed much DG ... Two of the three PH's I met in the Okavango were carrying 416 Rigby rifles. Better go tell them ...

FIRE IN THE HOLE!sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssBOOM!

[ 10-21-2002, 07:11: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

DaggaRon, better to be stupid than an ignorant asshole like you!

Axel

AXEL LOSER/POS/LIAR,
Yep me again, You lying LOSER peice of shit!

*SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS...BOOM!*
gothca Troll!

JAG

The ignorant can learn, the stupid cannot.

FIRE IN THE HOLE!sssssssssssssssssssssBOOM

mikeh375,
Axel's dad is the bright fellow who spent 100 hours turning a Winchester M70 into a CZ 550. I wonder how many times he whacked off into the potted plant during that job? I hope a vasectomy has been performed on the Dempel family jewels. Surely it was after they got a load of Axel.