I may be returning to the idea of building a double rifle on a shotgun action (yes, I have the book). I'm working from a 16 gauge hammer gun and am considering classic cartridges in .45 and .40 caliber but mostly interested in .45s.

I have and know a good bit about Sharps .45s of all ilks, but I am looking for the more traditional Africa/British calibers.

I know there is a .450 BPE but I do not know much about how long the case or size of head and rim. What is the water-grains capacity of this case compared to say a .45-100 (2.6") Sharps?

The .577-450 might be interesting but could be too big for a sleeved 16 gauge? Plus, I generally dislike necked cartridges as they are hard to get sufficient powder compression for this application - say 0.5" or so plus 3/8" or better of lube and somewhat deeply seated 550 gr bullet (yes, considerably heavier than traditional express bullets to be sure).

I'm also curious about .40s but have less inclination to go with one as I'm set up for .45s right now.

I have zero interest in smokeless cartridges or smokeless loading of bp cartridges. Any suggestions for the black stuff and any nubmers or other data would be of great help.

Thanks a bunch,
Brent

Here is an article with a little load data (very little).

According to the above article and this African-Hunter article the 450 BPE used/can use the same case as the 450 Nitro Express.

CH4D lists dies for the .450 BPE.

Looks like fun.

Thanks Charles. I didn't realize that the 450 bpe was a 3.25" cartridge like the Nitro. Interesting. Hard to believe those velocities but I've seen them published many times.

Not too sure I like that particular rifle. That thick horn trigger guard takes some getting used to.

thanks again,
Brent

There are pictures of another one in action here but I can't tell if it has the same horn triggerguard. I'm not a big fan of the horn myself, although I have only seen them in pictures.

One more link with some data from the NitroExpress.Com forums.

Charles, thanks a bunch for the threads and other info. Like many other threads I have seen on bpe rifles, getting them to regulate with modern black powders seems to be all but impossible. Even though the Swiss powder is touted as near identical to C&H #6, no one can get the velocities that seem to be required. Those old velocities of 2000 fps seem to be just off the charts by my experience.

I shoot a lot of 100 gr loads and better in a .45 Sharps and some fast-twist muzzleloaders. I use heavier bullets of course (475-550 gr), but even the lightest bullets seem to have no hope of reaching these speeds. Ernie Stallman (owner of Badger Barrels) once told me that you just can't burn enough powder in a .45 bore to make a .45-110, never mind a .45x3.25", go significantly faster than a .45-100 (2.6"). I'm not sure I buy this entirely but these were his experiences using barrels 32+" long and bullets in the 500-550 gr range. Shorter barrels and lighter bullets would only exacerbate the powder burning problem.

Indeed these are some interesting mysteries and challenges. But, were I the owner of a nice Purdy or H&H .45 bpe, I'd be strongly considering have someone like Champlain's smith reregulate it for modern black powder. Relative to the costs of these rifles, reregulation is not that terribly expensive.

As I may begin to build this .45 double, I will have the advantage of regulating it with the powder and bullets of my choice (probably 2fg Goex and 500 gr paper patched bullets). I would like to consider the .450 bpe but perhaps that big case will not work with today's powder. I was wondering if there was a shorter .450 cartridge from that era.

Thanks again,
Brent

Good luck with your project. I'm sure you've checked sources like Cartridges of the World already for other .45 black powder cartridges (I couldn't find mine in the "study" (junk room) last night.)

I haven't checked CoW yet. But will eventually. Thanks again.
Brent

Have you tried using fffg yet to get highetr velocities? I had to switch to fffg for my 10ga hunting loads to get high enough velocity.(fffg Goex)

I would check out Swiss, Wanno, and Kiks powders also, if you can find them. The newwer Goex(from the LA plant) is weaker than the PA made Goex.


Hog Killer

HK,
I'm not loading yet for this rifle that is just in the planning stages right now. Others have had these problems.

As for Swiss vs. Goex, it all depends. Some recent Goex will just about match recent Swiss. I have found that older Swiss 1.5 (second USA import batch) will shoot the same speed as early 3fg LA Goex - almost exactly.

Newer Goex is faster than this and newer Swiss has declined in velocity according to recent reports.

I have a new case of Goex to play with and will find out for myself in a few hours.

Brent

The older lot of Swiss 1-1/2Fg has enabled me to get regulation with straight black loads and the right bullets in a 450 3-1/4" BPE - the very Lancaster that is shown in the 1999 Vintagers photos, by the way. Velocity with a 310 grain PP bullet and 120 grains Swiss is just a smidge over 1800 fps, which is probably as fast as any of the originals actually were in full black loadings.

If I were converting a double shotgun to a rifle I would use the smallest head diameter cartridge I could to keep back thrust to a minimum. The .450 3-1/4", though, is both a classic and a performer. Head and rim diameters of the .450 BPE are .545" and .624" respectively.

Brent Most of the classic African Small Bore (ie .45 and under) Black powder rounds were bottlenecked.

I would go with the .450 BPE for abosulte ease. However, Martini Hnry cases (Bertram Brass) hold 120grains ffg, two Ox Yoke Wonder Wands and a .480grn bullet... Be aware though that most Brit ".450" black Powder rounds used a .450" bullet with a paper patch and shot them through a .461" bore ( Martini, Gibbs No 1 and 2, .450 Carbine, .450 Gattling, .450 No 1 & 2 Musket rounds etc). Have tried using plain based .458 sized lead bullets in my Martini's and Gibbs rifles and oh boy - they give about the same level of accuracy as a Brown Bess smooth bore!

I checked with Kynamco and they rate their current production Martini ammo as safe and usable in either a .458 or .461 Bore. It shoots darn well in an original Martini, so you could easily build a rifle with modern Barrel specs, shoot Kynock factory and just taylor your reloads appropriately. (NB Loading Bertram Brass to correct Martini specs is a pan galactic Mega pain in the arse- 85grains fG, grease proof .560" bit of paper - stuff into case and hope it expands properly on top of the powder well below the neck. Por in beeswax mix up to 1/3 of way into neck. Card wad, and seat paper patched bullet.

Original Martini .577/450 ammo had a card "liner" inside the case which took up quite a bit of spaceand 85grains of fG comes into the shoulder on such cases.

The Gibbs No 1 and the .450 No 1 Musket are the other two "classic" black powder cartridges of our Pioneer period.

Gibbs No 1 has a long neck. Easy to load. 75grns ffG, one wad, and 520grn hard cast bullet. One of the easiest rounds to get match accuracy with and much used in South Africa in long range (1000 yard) Black powder cartridge shoots. The No 2 case holds 85 grns ffG. Exactly the same basic case just with 3/4" more neck. Also easy to get to shoot well. Most of the notable hunters and marauders including Selous, Pretorious, Colenbrander, Johnson et al used this round.

.450 No 1 Musket is what the martini should have used. modern looking case of snsible proportions. 85grns ffG reaches just into the neck if you use a 2' drop tube. Two wads or grease proof paper and beeswax lube and a 480grn bullet and it all bolts togeather quickly and is pretty easy to get good accuracy.

Ganyana,
Thanks VERY much. This is really helpful. A .45 case with 85 grs of powder sounds just about right. Finding Gibbs No 2 brass should be a challenge but there is always RMC if I have to.

Thanks again.
Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Like many other threads I have seen on bpe rifles, getting them to regulate with modern black powders seems to be all but impossible. Even though the Swiss powder is touted as near identical to C&H #6, no one can get the velocities that seem to be required. Those old velocities of 2000 fps seem to be just off the charts by my experience.

I shoot a lot of 100 gr loads and better in a .45 Sharps and some fast-twist muzzleloaders. I use heavier bullets of course (475-550 gr), but even the lightest bullets seem to have no hope of reaching these speeds. Ernie Stallman (owner of Badger Barrels) once told me that you just can't burn enough powder in a .45 bore to make a .45-110, never mind a .45x3.25", go significantly faster than a .45-100 (2.6"). I'm not sure I buy this entirely but these were his experiences using barrels 32+" long and bullets in the 500-550 gr range. Shorter barrels and lighter bullets would only exacerbate the powder burning problem.



As I may begin to build this .45 double, I will have the advantage of regulating it with the powder and bullets of my choice (probably 2fg Goex and 500 gr paper patched bullets). I would like to consider the .450 bpe but perhaps that big case will not work with today's powder. I was wondering if there was a shorter .450 cartridge from that era.

Thanks again,
Brent

Brent, we are talking about two different cartridges, all together! The case of a 45-100 2.6 has only a capacity of 87.30 grs of water, while the 45-100 2.75 is 92.99 grs water. The 450NE/BPE is a 3.25" case with a case capacity of 136.04 grs water.

The above is a common mistake that is made by those who love the old Sharps BP rounds, their thinking these are basiclly the same case as the 450 NE/BPE. The 450 BPE can get close to 2000 fps quite easily, in a 28" barrel set.

Addtionally, since you will be building the double rifle, you can regulate it to shoot what ever you want. The Horn trigger guards are easily removed, and replaced with a steel one from someone like GALAZAN!

I have a Westley Richards hammerless, ejector double rifle with Rigby rifleing, cased in he maker's luggage case, engraved, and chambered for the 500/450#1 Express. That is a Black powder cartridge, and is a a 500BPE necked down to 450, and was made in 1892! If you are interested, I could send pictures, and this is the real thing, for about the same, or less money than it will cost you to build one on a shotgun action. The case for this cartridge holds 121.92 grs water, and is 2 3/4" case. I have cases, dies and shell holder for this round.

My E-mail is
DUGABOY1@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Brent, we are talking about two different cartridges, all together! The case of a 45-100 2.6 has only a capacity of 87.30 grs of water, while the 45-100 2.75 is 92.99 grs water. The 450NE/BPE is a 3.25" case with a case capacity of 136.04 grs water.

The above is a common mistake that is made by those who love the old Sharps BP rounds, their thinking these are basiclly the same case as the 450 NE/BPE. The 450 BPE can get close to 2000 fps quite easily, in a 28" barrel set.

Mac, no mistake at all. I know that the Sharps bp rounds are NOT the same and not even very close to the 450 bpe. I've always known that and so far as I can tell, most bpcr folks do also. What I don't know is exactly how the .450 bpe differs. Different, yes, how? Now I know, thanks.

But back to the 2000 fps. Again, I'll restate myself: many folks, including Steve who has posted on this thread, have had trouble getting those sorts of velecities out of bp cartridges and correct bullets. They are using the correct brass and bullets, but modern powder. The last appears to be the rub and most have had to resort to smokeless or smokeless/bp duplexing to get the rifles to regulate. At least, this is what is posted here there and everywhere.

Simply putting more powder in a cartrige or making a bigger cartridge to hold more powder must, at some point, run into sufficient diminishing returns. 2000 fps is anything but easy in any gun that I've seen or heard about. I have come close with a 235 gr bullet, 120 gr of Swiss 1.5fg powder (considered the modern equivalent of C&H #6) and a 42" barrel (albeit a muzzleloader). In the 26"-28 barrels of double rifles and much heavier bullets, 2000 fps will be challenging.

quote:

I have a Westley Richards hammerless, ejector double rifle with Rigby rifleing, cased in he maker's luggage case, engraved, and chambered for the 500/450#1 Express. That is a Black powder cartridge, and is a a 500BPE necked down to 450, and was made in 1892! If you are interested, I could send pictures, and this is the real thing, for about the same, or less money than it will cost you to build one on a shotgun action. The case for this cartridge holds 121.92 grs water, and is 2 3/4" case. I have cases, dies and shell holder for this round.

I appreciate your offer, but a gun without a hammer always seems lacking to me. Just my personal hang up. And I'm sure it would cost substantially more than building on from the shotty. Must be a hell of a rifle though.

Thanks again,
Brent

Brent
Nitro for blackpowder ammo for the Gibbs No 1 and 2 rounds is available in the UK and from classic arms and Gold reef city arms in South Africa. I am a heck of a long way from jo'burg and even further from London but I am sure some kind member in one of those places can mail you some!

In modern terms the .450 No 1 musket is the easiest brass because .50 basic can be necked down to form the round. (- my thanks to Col. Dan Henk of the US Army for supplying all our brass for our BP match rifles in this cal.)