For Lion, and not so much just for hunting but for being in Lion country, for protection.
In .375H&H, which load/bullet would you prefer?

A 300gn Woodleigh @ 2450-2500fps or a Woodleigh 350gn @ 2300-2350fps.

And what would you say is the differences or advantages are between them?

Allen

I'm no lion hunter at the moment, but my experience with expanding soft points has been the best with Hawk Bullets. From whitetails on up through elk and bison, they kill more effectively than any other bullets. They blow tremendous holes on exit. The 300 grain round nose with the .035 jacket is maybe the best all around hunting bullet there is.

Lions are not as soft as some seem to think. I would use either the 300 or 350 gr. Woodleighs but I suppose I would prefer the 350 gr. ROUND NOSE, for Lion..Not the PP as its a bit tougher, but I suspect it would still work fine.

I would never use Hawk bullets for dangerous game, and I have had so many failures with them in big bore African rifles that I refuse to use them. I have had jacket seperation with them time and time again in the 300 and 338s and even with 160 gr. Hawks in my 7x57 on small deer and plainsgame. IMO they are nothing more than old time bullets where expansion is controled only by jacket thickness. They have a very soft jacket and they do expand rapidly but seldom exit and jacket and lead seperate quite often, and I like two holes in everything I shoot.

With bullets like North Forks, Nosler, GS Customs, Swift, Hornady interlocks, and a host of others why use a 1950s bullet style.

I made an inquiry with Hawk about what "capital investment" would be required to make .395-caliber bullets, and got no reply. So I am with Ray Atkinson on this one.

Ditto Ray.

I have never hunted lion, but I have used Hawk Deadsofts in .416 and .458 calibers and have experienced failure (jacket separating from the core) on hogs. Lions kill people and I wouldn't rely on a cheap bullet when my backside is on the line. JMHO.

Good lord! The last box of Hawk's I bought was several years ago and I still have a few of them. They made a 338 275gr with an .050 jacket that penetrates and holds together better than any 338 bullet I have found. My 338-378 hates copper shank bullets like Barnes and Northfork so I needed a lead core bullet. The 275 Hawk has always shot great and killed effectively. Shooting into wet news print with 3/4 plywood every three inches has ye to yield a jacket/core separation. I wonder if their custom made bullets are made better or differently. Now I'm suspicious of the tree boxes of 458-480gr bullets. Looks like I need to run some tests on these Hawks before they head to the field. Thanks Ray

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Miller:
Now I'm suspicious of the tree boxes of 458-480gr bullets.

No need to be. Your experience speaks for itself. I've used them for years on NA game with perfect results. The Hawk expands better than any other bullet I've tried, yet penetrates well. I've never had one fail to exit. As for them coming apart on hogs, at our last DRSS hunt I shot completely through two hogs with one 300 grain RN softpoint 9.3 bullet, .030" jacket. The bullet passed through the target animal, hitting the one behind in the shoulder, exiting through his off side as well. That same hunt, a 500 grain mono solid of a popular make fired from a .470 was recovered from a 150 lb hog. No thanks.

For African game, I'd use Woodleighs as that's what they're for and they're a harder bullet than the Hawk.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I've shot some big hogs and butchered them myself and I never thought that one would stop a solid out of a 470. Could this have been a squib load or something like that?

Allen, have you ever looked into the A-Square Lion Load. Some have said its as destructive a bullet as they have ever tried. I am not endorsing it as I have never been fortune it enough to shoot any. The web site for A-Square is http://a-squareco.com/Triad.html

But they are no longer in Kentucky. They can now be found in Glenrock Wyoming.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Miller:
I've shot some big hogs and butchered them myself and I never thought that one would stop a solid out of a 470. Could this have been a squib load or something like that?

I dunno. It wasn't my rifle or loads, but I don't have any reason to think that it was a squib. At the DRSS hunt in January, we also had a 500 grain Woodleigh .470 soft recovered from a large hog. The gristle plate can make them hard to shoot through. We shoot a lot of hogs on these hunts - 20+ on each of the last two - mostly with double rifles. I use Hawks for hogs, and have never recovered one.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I havbe used Hawks in my 9,3x74R and in my 450400.
They do make huge mushrooms. I have had core seperations, but not anything resembling a blow up or fragmentation.

Of ALL the animals I have shot, the ones I have shot with Hawks have gone down the quickest.

I can only thoink of one hog that went about 20 feet. The rest have not taken a step.

I have had about 50% recovered bullets.

I have shot one lion.

He was hit with three 400gr Woodleigh Softs from my 450/400 double.

The first facing me, he was laying down with his head up looking at me. At the shot he fell over, the second hit his shoulder, exited behong the same shoulder, and re-entered the body. Those 2 were fired from @ 90 yards.

The third was shot from point blank range, the bbl less than a foot from him. That bullet went through the top of the spine, down into the body.

NONE OF THE BULLETS EXITED.

All mushroomed perfectly.

The lion was down and near dead with the first shot....

But bullets are cheap, and shooting is fun.

Still it does show you how tough the lions body is.

I Like a reasonably high velocity for lions. I have used the woodleigh 286 grn from my 9,3 on lion. Work well enough. I have since switched to Ken STuarts flat nosed softs in my 9,3 as the woodleighs were really too soft for Buffalo.

The old A square "Lion Loads" were way too soft. Ideal for leopard, or for a client to use for his first shot (lion are very soft if taken unawares) A charging lion has an awfull lot of rock hard muscle in front of the chest cavity.

But...if there are lion around- what else is there? I Like the Barnes TSX as a general purpose bullet. Out of a 458 Lott the 450grn X at 2380fps reached the brain on a frontal shot on a medium sized bull. Certainly enough bullet to turn it if not kill it. And more than adequate for Lion and Buff.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I made an inquiry with Hawk about what "capital investment" would be required to make .395-caliber bullets, and got no reply. So I am with Ray Atkinson on this one.

Ditto Ray.

Dotto here as well!

Hawk bullets are very nice, "CHEAP" bullets for practice, and pig hunting in things like 470NE, but like Ray, I'd never risk my butt, or a $45K lion hunt on a Hawk bullet!
For Lion I'd pick North Fork's soft point, for the first shot, followed by as many North Fork CPS bullets as I could get into him before he got out of sight, or.......... TO ME!

When using a .375, there is no need for a 350 or even a 300 grain bullet on lion. Velocity, controlled expansion and the penetration that will provide are what you need.

I would use, and have used, a good bullet of 270 or so grains weight at 2,650-2,700 fps on lion.

Such a bullet at that velocity will wring a lion out and knock him down like a rag doll. Mine penetrated four feet of my first lion on the raking shot that killed him.

Here it is, as recovered from just under the skin on his off side:



Although I have never tried them, from anecdotal evidence alone, I would not use a Hawk bullet on DG of any kind.

I would go for a 300 grs Nosler Partition. The best lion bullets there is I guess. Thin / easy expanding front section and deep penetrating rear section. Good combination

For lion you need velocity for effect on the nervous system. On a .375 I would opt for a 270-gr bullet at max velocity. Bullets recommended - those that create large solid frontal area such as Bitterroot or North Fork. There is nothing better on lion or leopard. If you use Woodleigh make sure it is a version recommended by Geoff McDonald for high impact velocity. He does not list suggested impact velocities without reason. You could try A-Square Lion-Load but that basically just is a first generation bonded core, whereas the first two mentined have gone beyond that. Remember - it is not bonded core that makes a bullet good - the design must first be good - then only does bonded core add improvement.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Here it is, as recovered from just under the skin on his off side:

mrlexma is that Hirtenbergers ABC?

mouse93,

Yes, you have a good eye. It is a 272 grain ABC bullet. They are among the very best bullets in the world, IMHO.

not as good eye as a big time I have spent shooting those (a decade or so).

Not to hijack the thread - just to share a true story behind that bullet - to my knowledge it is the very first predecessor of all x-type bullets of today - I think its worth to put it up - you decide:

Bullet was a brainchild of a Slovenian professor France AvÄin from Faculty of electronics in Ljubljana. To my knowledge it was the first x-type mono originating from back in seventies of previous century when the rest of the world was still shooting regular jacketed softs of various kind.

Prof. started development in 1968-69 by homemade bullets that were hand planed from a copper – zink (tombak) poles on a lathe. Among other tests he got some live pigs but usually just some pig and horse carcasses and performed tests by shooting at them in the basement of the faculty building – wooden floors in the ground floor basically jumped on every shot he made and students were alarmed at first but get used to realizing it was just a nutty professor at work. Later on when bullets were ready to be tested in field he got special permission from authorities (then Yugoslawian) that let him shoot couple of tens of big game (mainly boars and red deer) in rich State hunting grounds (Belje – Vojvodina) that were reserved mainly for political elite then. First bullets were tested in 7x64 Brenneke, .30-06 Spr. And 8x57 IS. BTW – he even tested it with 7x64 on pheasants and 22 Hornet on red stag of 250 kg – bullet did surprisingly well. It basically lifted particular calibers a class higher - especially in penetration department.

Bullet got some final improvements and some thousands were distributed to state game wardens that made the culls of a non trophy game.

After good results from the field prof. applied for patent and hit the road to find a factory that would produce and load the bullet. His first try was at Prvi Partizan in Serbia. They declined the offer right away (I guess nobody was taking the idea seriously by that time). Next stop was at RWS in Germany. They let him explain the idea and took some of the bullets for their own testing, but at the end they said that they are not interested. Funny tho – soon after his visit at RWS they presented their Cone Point (Kegel Spitz) that copied just the external shape of the design (it is still just a normal soft), but failed to understand the idea.

At the end he got what he was looking for at Hirtenberger’s in Austria. Guys took the idea right away – they even adopted the name (originally ABC was intend to be AvÄin Bullet Cartridge – but Austrian Bullet Cartridge sounded OK as well). At Hirtenberger bullet got the belted body and entered mass production in – if I remember correctly – 1971 or 1972.
Sadly when RUAG bought Hirtenberger (as well as RWS and Norma) they disconnected the production of that fine bullet.

Thanks for that background information.

I agree, it is a shame that RUAG no longer offers these excellent bullets.


Luckily, I was able to put away a good stock of factory ammunition in .375 caliber loaded with the ABC bullets before they were discontinued.

The A-Square Lion load has a really poor reputation for being too soft and coming apart on Lions.

Lions are truly one of the most dangerous animals on this earth IMO and I have a very high respect for them..A charging Lion is a force to deal with, they just make way too much noise.

I would be hesitant to use a monolithic bullet on Lion as sometimes the hollow point pinches shut or for some reason they fail to expand on rare ocassions. My luck would fall into that catagory and I know a lot of folks that swear by Barnes X bullets, I'm just not one of them.

I think any DG bullet Northfork makes would be a Lion load as they are such reliable bullets..I also know the 350 gr. Woodleigh RN expands to the size of a quarter and penetrates well and kills very fast on most anything. The .450 gr. Woodleigh in the .416 is an awesome bullet..

I stick to what has worked for me and others in the past, proven bullets over a time spand are a better banner than one shot experiences.

Something else that I am convienced of is that just because a particular bullet is wonderful in a 375 does not make it wonderful in a .416 even if the same brand.

The 400 gr. Nosler in a .416 Rem at 2400 is about the most dependable bullet I have ever used on buffalo, but the 300 gr. Nosler in a .375 H&H does not seem to hold together as well..I have seen this in many instances, so what works in one caliber may not work in another and the same applies to brands..

I have had many failures with Barnes X in my 300 H&H and in my .338, with certain weight bullets, and some of this could probably be corrected by going up or down in the weight. I have shot and seen shot a lot of deer, antelope and plainsgame with the 75 gr. Barnes X in my 6x45 and its an awesome bullet and never failed in the last 10 or more years, albiet they no longer make it in 75 gr. wt. however I have a supply.

This subject can get very complicated and thus causes a lot of arguements among hunters who always compare one to another..

At this point my plan is to use the Woodleigh 300gn bullet as my all around bullet load.

The when in Lion country fill the mag with Woodleigh 350gn RN soft point bullet loads.Being as soft it is should work on PG at moderate ranges if need be.

And use the Woodleigh 350gn RN solid as my solid for Buff or if I'm wandering around an area with crabby Elephants.

My thinking is that the 350gn RN soft & solid should hit (hopefully) near same POI and would make a good Buff combo.
And a good,Just in case in Elephant & Lion country.

Basically then just two trajectories/POI to deal with.

Thoughts?

Allen

The KISS principal keeps you from having the wrong bullet up the spout or in the mag when you encounter the "other" game.

No issue being loaded for elephant when you shoot an impala but big problems the other way around. There is enough PITA with just softs and solids.

My advice, which I follow for what its worth, is to load a soft (my choice most of the time in ele country) or two you would use on anything over solids.

Solids will work on everything, softs won't.

Rat Atkinson mentions the North Forks cup point. This can replace the solid for everything but elephant and it may well work for cows too, though NF Mike will never recomend it.

I'd stick to 300gr softs tougher than Woodleighs and the solids.

JPK

I've used Woodleighs for years and if you pick the right bullet for the game it will never fail you...

I would use the 350 gr. RN soft and a solid for any African hunting and have done so. BTW the 350 Gr. PP is a bit tougher bullet than the RN and it would be just as good a choice. The 350s are both tougher than the 300 gr. Woodleighs or so it seems to me.

Your right it does keep things simple, and will be an excellent choice..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Indlovu:
i think 300 gr nosler partitions would be perfect; rapid expansion, energy transfer, and adequate penetration. i shot a lioness (side shot) with above factory loaded ammo at 25 yds. Flopped over at first shot, then rampaged etc.
bottom line, first shot devastated heart lung area and exited the opposite side. What more can you want?

The 300 grain Nosler Partition did a fine job on my big male Lion.