I am rather new here and have tried to find a discussion concentrating on choosing caliber between these 3 for a new double that I want to build. Anyone that could give some advice With regard to;

- hunting buffalo and elephant ?
- the optional mix between recoil and ability to kill a Buffalo and elephant ?

Do not have any concerns about ammo availability as this is no problem these days.

Without a doubt (in my opinion), the 450NE 3 1/4" is the best choice. Much more power than the 450/400 and better penetration than the 470 and also you can house it in a smaller, trimmer action like the 450/400. If you do some research on the predilections of a lot of PHs and knowledgeable folks (Like Crain Boddington, Ivan Carter and Graham Wright for example) and not to mention Taylor, they all pick this caliber as their choice for a double. jorge

Many thanks Jorge. I have in fact started to think more of the 450 NE lately after reading articles etc. I have test shooted a Krieghoff in 500 NE - no problem, but Government hesitate to give new licences for some reason and I find that the 500 NE is for the PH guys and not " a normal hunting " caliber.

Then again a lot of people tell me that the 470 smack you more than the 500 .. Then the 450 came into mind.

Strange thing - I have been looking at Verney Carron in 450 NE - I have a Chapuis in 8x57 JRS but Chapuis do not have 450 NE in their product line. Satisfied with the VC ?

Extremely satisfied with my VC in every way, fit, finish, quality and the rifle shoots EXACTLY as the regulation target it came with.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Graham Wright for example

Not to nit-pick, but GRAEME's personal dangerous game double is actually an Alexander Hollis .500/450 NE sidelock ejector with an additional set of .500 (3") NE barrels.

Agree on the .450 (3 1/4") being the gentleman's choice of double rifle cartridges, by the way.

Nitpcik away but he clearly states in his book were he choosing a double, the 450NE would be it.

All three will work.

If you are very recoil sensitive or want a lighter gun then look at the 450-400.

If weight or recoil is not a issue than I like the 450 better than the 470 as I feel it has less recoil with the same result and a much better selection of bullets if you reload.

Be sure to tell your V-C dealer in Norway your target weight for the gun. Also be sure to have your stock measurements as stock fit will make a difference.

I have killed big game with both the 450-400 & 450, only thing I have personally killed with the 470 was a piece of paper but I know it will work on game.

Have fun, none of the three are a bad choice.

Interesting indeed ! I have learned that many are very satisfied with their VC. I have talked to VC in France and maybe I have to visit the factory !?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Extremely satisfied with my VC in every way, fit, finish, quality and the rifle shoots EXACTLY as the regulation target it came with.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
All three will work.

If you are very recoil sensitive or want a lighter gun then look at the 450-400.

If weight or recoil is not a issue than I like the 450 better than the 470 as I feel it has less recoil with the same result and a much better selection of bullets if you reload.

Be sure to tell your V-C dealer in Norway your target weight for the gun. Also be sure to have your stock measurements as stock fit will make a difference.

I have killed big game with both the 450-400 & 450, only thing I have personally killed with the 470 was a piece of paper but I know it will work on game.

Have fun, none of the three are a bad choice.

Thanks for your advice Ken - I will for sure take that into consideration. I understand that you are the VC agent in the US - so you should know. One difficulty is that we do not have any VC dealer in Norway. Speaking directly with that factory should be the solution.

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Interesting indeed ! I have learned that many are very satisfied with their VC. I have talked to VC in France and maybe I have to visit the factory !?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Extremely satisfied with my VC in every way, fit, finish, quality and the rifle shoots EXACTLY as the regulation target it came with.

If you want to visit the factory PM me and I can set it up for you. Promise you will have a good time!

Thanks Ken - I will let you know !

Morten

I have a 470NE...and sold my 450-400 3"... and have shot it for years including Elephant....that said, nearing 70YO, it is heavy and the new Hornady ammo really whacks me at the other end shooting paper or in DR competitions!
I yearn for my old 450-400 3" back in hand...in fact I made an offer to the present owner yesterday....."Nope, it's my Hammer, but you can take it to the next shoot!!" We still call it "Our Gun!!"
If you look at the paper ballistics, all of the 450's, 470's, 465's and 475's do the same thing...In my Opinion- it really boils down to personal preference, and what works best in one's personal experience!!
The bigger bores are better STOPPING Rifles, but if you read the old authors like Hunter, Bell, etc...they really like the 400's...lighter and quicker and penetrate very well.
Cheers,

Thanks Eddy for sharing your thoughts.

My thoughts is that I want a caliber that is a good killer ( penetrates good with a good shot placement, but have some room for error if not a perfect shot placement occurs ) and with some ability to prevent/stop a charge in combination with not too much recoil. The guys here in AR then recommend 450 NE.

As I told I have tested the 500 NE and it was ok to shoot, but Governement does not give new licenses for some reason. Then people tell me that the 470 smack you due to a more quick burning powder than the 500. I do not like that, but I will test it in January/February. The recommendation of 450 NE then seem to me very reasonable and a very good choice :-)

I have now also been offered to test a old English in Norway in caliber 475 which is a necked 450 shooting the same 480 grain bullet as 450. After tested 500, 470 and 475 I think I should have some " experience " to decide !

450/400 would be my pick if you wanted to fit a detachable scope.
Without a scope there is really nothing between the 450 and 470.

The 450/400 3 inch is a joy! It shoots a long 400 grain .408-.410 caliber bullet. That long 400 grain bullet penetrates well at moderate velocity and recoil.

I have owned my vintage 10 1/2 pound, 450/400 3 inch since 1995. It's fun to shoot! It is fun to shoot because it doesn't beat me up.

The 450's and the 470 NE are great rounds that have done it all. They just aren't for me.
The best double rifle, is the one that you like. The one you can afford, and shoot accurately.

That the best double rifle of all!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
450/400 would be my pick if you wanted to fit a detachable scope.
Without a scope there is really nothing between the 450 and 470.

I was not thinking of fitting av scope. Just use the iron sights. I might fit a tiny little Doctor red dot see through sight - weights 70 gram I think, but have not decided yet. The 500 I tested had one of these mounted and it was helping you finding the target.

I have a Burris FastFire III mounted on my double. Awesome!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I have a Burris FastFire III mounted on my double. Awesome!

The Doctor I mentioned is exactly the same. Just another name :-) ( same producer ?? )

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Interesting indeed ! I have learned that many are very satisfied with their VC. I have talked to VC in France and maybe I have to visit the factory !?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Extremely satisfied with my VC in every way, fit, finish, quality and the rifle shoots EXACTLY as the regulation target it came with.

If you want to visit the factory PM me and I can set it up for you. Promise you will have a good time!

Ken,
I have been doing some thinking. I have primarely been looking for a used double with ejectors, but can not find any in the market in Scandinavia ( Norway, Sweden, Denmark ) A gunsmith are able to fit the stock - at least the lenght. So the questin is; are you able to export a used VC from the US to Norway subject to all paper and licenses are in order and presented to you ? ( which is no problem from Government ) Can arrange that the gun is bought through a licensed weapon dealer here in Norway.

I see from tiem to time on Guns International that used rifles are available, but understand that I have to talk directly to the seller.

Morten

I think the felt recoil has much to do with stock design and weight of the rifle. Seems the old English guns are the only ones that are designed correctly from the get go...in my opinion!!
Seems like the Germans and French always go lighter and have thin stocks, generally without cheek pieces... with strange angles that just don't work on heavy duty doubles...they whack you badly!!
I think age of shooter also is a factor...as one gets older you become LESS tolerant of heavy recoil...I don't know if that is just smarter....??
Cheers,

Morten- Check your PM's

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I think the felt recoil has much to do with stock design and weight of the rifle. Seems the old English guns are the only ones that are designed correctly from the get go...in my opinion!!
Seems like the Germans and French always go lighter and have thin stocks, generally without cheek pieces... with strange angles that just don't work on heavy duty doubles...they whack you badly!!
I think age of shooter also is a factor...as one gets older you become LESS tolerant of heavy recoil...I don't know if that is just smarter....??
Cheers,

The V-C's are made to the customers stock specification. If possible the customer should be measured. A ill fitting stock will beat the crap out of you regardless of maker or caliber. BTW, I find most vintage English guns to be far to short LOP for me.

Depends on what you want.

The 470 is a lot more than the other two, more momentum and energy. More recoil too.

Just depends are wether you're just goofing around or be more assured at stopping a charge.

quote:

The 470 is a lot more than the other two, more momentum and energy. More recoil too.

A 470 is a lot more than the 450?

It has been expressed many times in the threads here on AR-
Most of us with 450 3 1/4's perceive less recoil from our 450's than 470's-

As has also been mentioned- the sectional density/ penetration is perhaps a tad better-

As well as the greater projectile choices for handloading-

Having owned both 450's and 470's
- I kept a 450 - sold the 470 (and the 500)-

As to the 450-400 -
A rifle capable of taking all game- without the weight and recoil of the bigger bores-

quite possibly the best client double of them all-

While I see the 450 as perhaps the smallest bore double for the Professional-

As I age- I will most likely shoot my 375 and lighter doubles more than the 450-
Though I'll likely not part with it-

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I think the felt recoil has much to do with stock design and weight of the rifle. Seems the old English guns are the only ones that are designed correctly from the get go...in my opinion!!
Seems like the Germans and French always go lighter and have thin stocks, generally without cheek pieces... with strange angles that just don't work on heavy duty doubles...they whack you badly!!
I think age of shooter also is a factor...as one gets older you become LESS tolerant of heavy recoil...I don't know if that is just smarter....??
Cheers,

Eddy, I do not agree with you. Take a look on the Anderson & Wheeler from UK ( famous from the last James Bond film ) The rifle is a copy of the french Verney Carron - or the other way. All Chapuis and Verney Carron from France, Merkel and Krieghoff from Germany have cheek pieces as standard and you can upgrade to the Rigby style for a few dollars.

I have tested the Krieghoff in 500 NE - weighted 5,2 kg -approx 11,2 pounds. The 470 Krieghoff weights approx 10,8 pounds. Maybe slightly less than the English guys, but enough for the recoil and to be carried all day.

I agree on the shape and age regarding recoil. At a age of 53 ... I am still young :-) Then the 450 is a good suggestion - do'nt you think ? I asm leaning towards a Verney Carron in 450 NE after having visited the factory first :-)

I got to quick with my post re German and French makers....I intended to exclude VC from my broad statement, and didn't- SORRY, my comment was directed at the "stock or production" German and French doubles you find out there on the secondary market. IMHO- I think built too light overall and stocks very thin and transmit horrendous recoil. I have never owned one, just watch shooting and shot them myself...painful!!...and I do/did handle recoil well!!
The A&W is a UK built rifle, isn't it?? V-C is building them right, like the old UK guns!!
I am just not a 458 Cal fan regardless of the availability of bullets for reloading....maybe ok for practice, but there have been many maulings and stompings over failed performance of factory 458 bullets....
I still like the 450-400 3" with GOOD Bullets, or the 470 for the stopping rifle, close up and friendly for Buff and Elephant.
That said, I don't think the 470 is a gun you take to the range and shoot for fun, very much, unless you are Sam testing 577's!! Not me.
Cheers,

No problem Eddy

Anderson & Weeler is a London gunsmith. They produce their DR i 2 different ways. You can order an upgrade version which is handmade from the first step starting at cost approx USD 65.000,-. The cheaper version at approx USD 22.000, but here they buy the barrels finished from Europe and make the rest in London.

Read the newly arrived thread on shooting a 470 Krieghoff.. Gives you some info about weight and stock fit...

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:

quote:

The 470 is a lot more than the other two, more momentum and energy. More recoil too.

A 470 is a lot more than the 450?

Yea, I noticed that one as well Ken! Not sure how one shooting a 500gr bullet at 2150fps with a diameter of .458 is much less than the other shooting a 500gr bullet at 2150fps with diameter of .474! Theoretically speaking, the 450 might give a very slight nod to penetration due to the marginally smaller diameter, but for all practical purposes, they are the same weapon in terms of performance.

Shame you can't get the new license for the 500NE as that's where you start seeing a real difference as compared to the 450 - 475 group of calibers.

I'll just add a statement on the VC as well. I've owned two. A 577NE and my new 500NE that was built specifically for me. Both are very nice rifles. I hunted elephant and buffalo with the 577NE last year without a hitch. I'll be taking the 500NE this year for elephant bull. We had a little issue with the new gun but it was taken care of promptly and properly and is shooting very well. It fits me perfectly which tames the recoil nicely out of it's 10.25lb weight. The fit and finish on the VC is excellent and I'd have to problem purchasing and hunting with another.

Todd- Nit Picking your comment about 500 Vs 500 in the 450vs470....
Proper bullet weight for the British loadings of the 450....and 465, and 475 is 480grs!! Get it right for heavens sake!!....Just kidding!!

Remember, one of the biggest failings of the Win 458 Mag was what they said it did vs what it really did.....stated 2150 trying to duplicate British loadings but actually only making 1950...a Big Difference!!

Reading Cartridges of the World today, it quotes Taylor as having killed 1500 elephants with the 450-400 3" and making the statement..."the 450-400 in either 31/4" or 3" is adequate for anything in Africa, being used by a competent hunter." Elmer Keith also stated that it was his go to rifle for crawling through the bushes of Alaska in pursuit of big bears....
I still think it is the best fast and friendly double for most situations in the world!! I like the 3" personally, these days because of the availability of the ammo.
I have already spoken with Ken Bush at Kebco about a proper weight 450-400 3" with a second set of 405 Win BBLS for US game.....moose, black bears and elk in the brush of Northwest...and Piggies!!
Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
450/400 would be my pick if you wanted to fit a detachable scope.
Without a scope there is really nothing between the 450 and 470.

I was not thinking of fitting av scope. Just use the iron sights. I might fit a tiny little Doctor red dot see through sight - weights 70 gram I think, but have not decided yet. The 500 I tested had one of these mounted and it was helping you finding the target.

You will greatly appreciate the Doctor III- in my opinion-

Works exceptionally on my Heym 450- particularly as my eyes get older

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
450/400 would be my pick if you wanted to fit a detachable scope.
Without a scope there is really nothing between the 450 and 470.

I was not thinking of fitting av scope. Just use the iron sights. I might fit a tiny little Doctor red dot see through sight - weights 70 gram I think, but have not decided yet. The 500 I tested had one of these mounted and it was helping you finding the target.

You will greatly appreciate the Doctor III- in my opinion-

Works exceptionally on my Heym 450- particularly as my eyes get older

Yes I think that is a good idea and my gunsmith recommended it too I have never tried it before until I testet that Krieghoff in 500 NE, but I was surprised of the easiness to shoot with both eyes open like a shotgun !

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Todd- Nit Picking your comment about 500 Vs 500 in the 450vs470....
Proper bullet weight for the British loadings of the 450....and 465, and 475 is 480grs!! Get it right for heavens sake!!....Just kidding!!

Remember, one of the biggest failings of the Win 458 Mag was what they said it did vs what it really did.....stated 2150 trying to duplicate British loadings but actually only making 1950...a Big Difference!!

Reading Cartridges of the World today, it quotes Taylor as having killed 1500 elephants with the 450-400 3" and making the statement..."the 450-400 in either 31/4" or 3" is adequate for anything in Africa, being used by a competent hunter." Elmer Keith also stated that it was his go to rifle for crawling through the bushes of Alaska in pursuit of big bears....
I still think it is the best fast and friendly double for most situations in the world!! I like the 3" personally, these days because of the availability of the ammo.
I have already spoken with Ken Bush at Kebco about a proper weight 450-400 3" with a second set of 405 Win BBLS for US game.....moose, black bears and elk in the brush of Northwest...and Piggies!!
Cheers,

Yep, I knew I would catch grief over the 480gr vs 500gr comment!! Nominal 500gr and nominal 2,150fps!! How's that?

Also, yep, you're correct on the original specs for the 458WM concerning what it was supposed to achieve and what it actually achieved.

Got Sabatti 450 NE and loving it
Great price. For $ 5,000.00 can beat it and its sturdy and damn accurate

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Got Sabatti 450 NE and loving it
Great price. For $ 5,000.00 can beat it

You said it and I agree. You CAN beat it!!

9.5 pound 450/400 3": 42 ft-lbs of recoil.
10 pound 450: 58 ft-lbs of recoil.
11 pound 470: 64 ft lbs of recoil.
12 pound 500: 78 ft-lbs of recoil.

I've only shot one of them but when I drop the hammer on my first double it'll be a 450. That is a level of recoil I know I can handle. Too much beyond that and my retinas want to come loose.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
9.5 pound 450/400 3": 42 ft-lbs of recoil.
10 pound 450: 58 ft-lbs of recoil.
11 pound 470: 64 ft lbs of recoil.
12 pound 500: 78 ft-lbs of recoil.

I've only shot one of them but when I drop the hammer on my first double it'll be a 450. That is a level of recoil I know I can handle. Too much beyond that and my retinas want to come loose.

One thing missing from this line up however is the "perceived" level of recoil, largely dependent on stock fit. As an example, my 577NE weighed 14 lbs but the "perceived" recoil was less than that of my 11 lbs Merkel 500NE. The same held true when I took the weights out of the 577NE dropping the weight to 12.5 lbs. The Merkel "kicked" harder. The Merkel had excessive drop at the heel while the VC 577 had a relatively straight stock. My current VC 500NE was stocked to my measurements. The rifle weighs 10.25 lbs, light for a 500NE. However, the felt recoil with this gun at 10.25 lbs is significantly LESS than that of the Merkel, in the same caliber, at 11 lbs.

That being said, I don't think you should base your decision on which rifle to choose, based solely on the "paper" recoil numbers. We've been down this road previously, and at the risk of opening old and sore debates, for me personally, I can't tell the difference at the range between a 470NE and a 500NE in terms of felt recoil, assuming the stock fit is the same. But take a straight stocked Kreighoff 500NE and compare it to a large drop at the heel Merkel in 470NE and I'll just about guarantee you the 470NE Merkel will "smart" more!!

I agree about stock fit, the most painful rifle I've ever fired was a 30-30. In general I think the numbers here show a trend, and if one were to fire them in equivalent rifles--all well stocked--the numbers might be of some use. Perhaps more important in the post I made is the differences in weight. I think I would rather have the 450 over a 470 based on weight, let alone that the heavier rifle still recoils harder.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Extremely satisfied with my VC in every way, fit, finish, quality and the rifle shoots EXACTLY as the regulation target it came with.

Any picture(s) of that nice VC Jorge ?