Hi
I've often wondered if 'knockdown' power was the result of percise shot placement, on an area of the animal that when struck, creates enough pain, or nerve shock to incapacitate the animal, and knock him down?

Having boxed for a long time, I know the human body has such points. A good, strong hook underneath the rib, on the kidneys will knock a man out, and stop him from being able to walk, or breath comfortably, for a long time.

Likewise a heart shot, can, and sometimes does, stop the persons heart, causing pretty much instant knockdown, and perhaps death.

A temple shot knocks the person down and out, just as a chin hook can twist the neck, just right, and knock you out.

What are the pressure points, or vulnerability spots, that a heavy rifle can
perform this sort of damage, where a lighter rifle might not???

Do other dangerous game have such weak spots?

gs

And that is why heavyweights fight heavyweights and lightweights fight lightweights etc. A .585 Nyatti will have more impact hitting say a kangaroo than it will hitting a camel although both invariably will be in a spot of bother.

Just like Mike Tyson will have more impact if he were to land a clean punch on Lenox Lewis than if Kostya Tzyu were to land it.

Thus light rifles for light game and heavy rifles for heavy game.

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I'm looking for something a bit more concrete. Experiences of shots you can take with a 585 or 505 Gibbs that a 375 or 416 are ineffective at.

I also consider a 375 the minimum gun to carry, in these areas and conditions, so, calling that a small gun, is, well watch Saeed's videos of constantly quick kills using a very similar round to a 375 H&H.

In other words, are there shots on Buffalo, lion, elephant, hippo, etc. that you can take with a larger caliber rifle, vs. a 375 or 416, and have considerably more confidence that the slugs impact will be tranmitted to the nervous system of the animal?

i.e. someone described a knocked out elephant or cape buffalo, and, they went over to take pictures, and the guy woke up, and wasn't happy...

Stuff that reflects those kinds of experiences?

gs

PC:
I'm not really sure, that in a hand held, shoulder fired rifle, anything we can fire fits into the stopper category on big game.

If some guy can hit a cape buffalo, with a 4 bore, and the buff still runs 60 yards, what more could you use that would have an effect greater then that?

gs

Yeah I agree with you Socrates I am no technical expert but I have seen a trend among most of us using calibres appropriate for the chore we are doing. I think you understand what I was trying to get at with the "weight of fighters analogy". In simpler terms you would hurt your buffalo more with a shoulder shot with a .416 than a .222 remington. I realise I am missing the point of your question and I have never shot any game in Africa. But I have one final point or question if you like. Those shots you talk about with the .375 and .416 in which a larger caliber would have made a difference, I would tend to think that after these calibers and then the .458's Lott, weatherby whatever If they can not do it then your larger calibre would begin to subject you to the "law of diminshing returns" as far as effectiveness goes.

What do you think in regards to that, I mean I am going to be building a .585 Nyatti but realistically I feel it will not be twice as effective on game over my .416 despite the fact it has twice the energy. Im my way of thinking .585's etc seem to be "I just have to have one items" even though I will shoot game with it, I will always shoot the rigby better and by rights it will be a more effective rifle.

There you go Socrates I have made absolutely no sense at all have I, and still have not been able to help with your question.

Regards PC

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I have heard that a direct frontal chest shot on a buffalo with a .375 is not advisable, though I have never taken one.

Animals seem pretty much oblivious to pain. While a man will drop and writhe in pain from a good kidney punch, you can blow the kidneys of many game animals to smithereens and the animals will still run for miles.

Socrates, I think you are looking for the 99%+, three-sigma solution. I'm pretty sure that even the most powerful weapon ever fired by man won't guarantee a one-shot stop against a really big tough animal. There is always that freak situation. Even brain shots are not guaranteed to work. Its rare that they don't, but it happens. None of that means that "stoppers" aren't really stoppers, its just that you get 90% odds instead of 60% odds, or whatever.

Socrates,

If you watch those big bulls spar with each other, it is pretty obvious that they can dish out and take punishment.

To incapacitate an animal with a single shot requires hitting the brain or the forward part of the central nervous system (brain shots or "spining"). Some people have written that if you shoot an animal through the heart with the heart in a particular stage that the pressure will be conducted to the brain and kill the animal by brain hemorage.This has been debunked by at least one professor of veterinary medicine.

The other way to kill is to remove the oxygen from the brain by draining the blood supply; the big bullet hole "lets the blood out and the wind in" as Elmer Keith used to say.

I would say that the frontal shot on the buff works if you make it high enough so that you take out a part of the spine.If you are off to the side you might only get one lung, and Mr. Buff will be might put out with you.

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

PC:
I've been reading about game animals, and hunting, since I was in 2nd grade. Fascinated with the subject. I've also been
intrested in protecting myself, since I don't want to become dinner for a hippo, or croc, lion, or any other type of 'nice' animal, that want's to leave us alone(that last, rather sarcastic remark, was made in reference to the killer hippo, posted somewhere around here. Yes, some animals like to kill, and eat humans).

Anyway, I would love to watch two bull
Cape Buffalo's sparing, but, I don't want them deciding that, like a lion, I and, my offspring, would be better off dead, since we might kill them later, as humans are want to do.

So, I've studied for about 40 years, rifles, and pistols, that would work on such beasts.

I have a pistol, a 45 Linebaugh, that Ross Seyfried used an identical gun, one serial number apart, to kill a cape buffalo with, barely.

As he pointed out, the frontal brain shot on a Cape buffalo is very difficult, since that nose you are trying to fire above, is moving up and down, as he charges at you.
Not to mention you have to penetrate, or fire under, the equivelent of armor plateing, the horn boss, covering the brain.

My understanding is that shot, along with a few other, neccessary stopper shots, are better done with heavier caliber rifles, with better penetration, due to heavy bullet weight. 400 grains is good, 500 would be better?

416 Rigby was, and is, in my understanding, the minimum desired round for that shot, with a few people pulling it off with a 375.

Somewhere around here I seem to recall Saeed saying that he saw a 577 used on an elephant, and, the elephant didn't really notice much difference from a 375. Apparently, the elephant only really responded to accurate brain shots, and will go down with a 5 X 57, if K Bell hits his target, and, doesn't care if Joe shmo misses with a 577, he turns around, and takes off.

Then we have the lion, with three 375 bullets destroying his heart, still having enough power to put his mouth, and claws, into the shoulder of the guy who killed him...

I have always thought that a 4 bore, with it's 1/4 pound bullet, at about 1800-2000 fps
would be the ultimate stopping rifle.

Instead, some buffalo takes it through the lungs, and heart, runs 60 yards, and then falls down. That scares me to death.

What in Gods' name can you use to protect yourself from such animals?

I thought the 4 bore to be the ultimate stopper, and it sure didn't flatten that buffalo.

As Jim Dodd points out, you can try a spining shot or brain shot on a buff, but don't miss, since he's going to be looking right at you, and that pain in his neck is going to really piss him off, and you are the next target, front and center, for him.

Harald has an excellent point. Yes, I want a 100% stopping rifle, because I want a 100% chance of being alive.

Then I guess the question becomes, how much more effective as stoppers are these three calibers, 375, 416, and 458?

I limit it to those calibers since I don't think the bigger calibers are economically possible for my current financial situation, sub teaching, and refeeing, and, being a person that likes a good value, I just can't see paying for someone like WBy' ammo, etc.

Also, as stated above, I think there must be a point of diminishing returns, where the animal can't tell the caliber difference, and, if you can't knock a buff over with a 4 bore, then it's all got to be shot placement.
Use the most rifle you can handle accurately seems to best advice.

As for caliber, I'm beggining to think in all game, pretty much under elk size, caliber does make a pretty big difference.
Everyone uses expanding bullets to get a bigger bullet hole, with more energy transfer.
Why not use a pre-expanded bullet, like a 375 or 416? They fire flat, and, if the bullet fails to expand, who cares????

The research on human game gives a big edge in stopping power to 45 ACP, showing that even with a big, slow moving bullet, the bullet hole size makes a difference, or, maybe, the guys shooting the 45's are just better shots then the guys using the lesser calibers.

I've always found people advocating caliber as the best way to increase the effectiveness of your rifle, or pistol, and I tend to agree with that.

Still, at a certain point, somewhere I suspect over 45 caliber, the point becomes moot for game, and humans. Perhaps just the size of Buffalo, rhino, hippo, elephants precludes them even noticing the size of the hole that hit them...?
To take it to an extreme, do you really think a 150 ton Blue whale, with a heart the size of a car, and about 8 feet tall, do you really think they would notice if you shot them with a 375 or a 4 bore? Do you think they would notice that you shot them at all????

As others have stated, the usual real advantage of larger caliber, is heavier bullets, giving better penetration.

I wonder if short, wide bullets sacrifice
penetration? In other words, if you increase the bullet diameter, without an increase in bullet weight, you loose penetration, which maybe more important then the caliber's effect on huge game?

John Linebaugh did penetration tests, using different calibers, and found the best penetrating handgun bullet to be the 475.

It penetrates better then the 50 caliber.

I wonder if the same holds true with large game rifles.

PC: To answer your question, about the 585:
I think if you fail to hit the right point on the animal, it doesn't matter that you missed it with a 585 or a 416, you still missed it.

The 416 will give you a much better chance of hitting him with the second shot, and the 375 is supposed to better then the 416 for second shots.

All that said, Wouldn't you be better off
with a 375 you could hit exactly what you are aiming at with, then a 585 that only God can fire from his shoulder?

I guess with a muzzle break, huge recoil pad, mercury in the stock, and a heavy gun,
it might not be that bad, still, is it really worth the expense, when you have a rifle that will take any game animal on the planet, except, perhaps, whales, and the occassional dinosaur????

PC: By the way, I often make no sense, or little, considering I'm asking questions of people who have watched the actual results of such events, something I have not. So to them, I'm sure, I often ask, or hypothesis
stupid questions, or theories.

That's ok, that's how many people learn...

gs

Socrates I would never try and justify my need for a .585, I don't need one period. Truth be known my hunting experience so far has not warranted a .416 Rigby either. I just like the big bores, I do not know why realy they kick more are more expensive to shoot etc. But there fun somehow.

So when it is all said and done I get the feeling you want a .500 cal rifle but feel it is to expensive. I think if you really want it just get it. Yes it is more expensive to shoot a .500 than a .416, .416 more expensive than a .375 and so on. But at the end of the day "you can't take it with you" and does the extra couple of hundred or few hundered really change your future financial position down the track I do not think it does, buying a house and not insureing it then having it burn down will as more than a few hundred are involved. Life is not a rehearsal Socrates you only get one go so if you want it scrimp and save and just get it. Once you have got it and your dies and a few cases it will just be the extra cost of a bit of powder and a few projectiles. Sometimes good value has to give way for good fun (I am trying to justify my plan to build a .585 Nyatti here Ha Ha).

In relation to the topic yes I think if you can shoot the .500 rifle as well as you can shoot a .375 then you would definitely be a little safer in regards to getting stomped. By how much, I do not know a lot of variables need to be considered, state of the animal mentally ie. did you suprise him or is he pissed at you, angle of shot, bullet performance and a host of others.

Regards PC

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PC:
I just don't see it. While it's a toy, the great part about rifles is using them and shooting them. This means, the beast must be a gun you can fire more then 10 rounds a day with, at the range, for me.

While I don't think I'm very recoil sensitive, I know my 45 gets near the upper end of recoil for a number of people, and, I developed a 'controled flinch', shooting it.

I've taken a lot of punches in my day, and, I think you can only take so many, before they start catching up to you.

I view your 416, and a 375 as a good, versatile rifle, that you can shoot a bit, without getting too recoil shy.
A 458 might be the limit of what I consider a reasonable cost benefit rifle.

Anyway, that's just me.

If you want a 585, go for it. I always believe in bullet diameter, period.

Go for it.

Keep in mind I think the guy that originally came up with the 585 thought it was on the limit of what anyone could fire, hand held, from a shoulder.

Also, you might conisder that buffalo hunting has been done on hands and knees, crawling through heavy thorn bushes, and the shot has to be taken prone...

gs

Socrates-
There is no such thing as a 100% stopping rifle because there are no 100% stopping rifle shooters. Too many variables make something like this impossible. If you're worried about a buffalo or lion getting to you, then you are left with two choices. Either don't go hunting for them or learn to shoot well enough on the first shot so that there will be no charge to deal with.
There are plenty of good stopping rifle calibers, just not very many good stopping rifle shooters. I'm not talking about range shooting here, I'm talking about the real deal. Charges from any dangerous animal are no fun at all I assure you. Your own self control and attitude are way more important than the size of the hole in your gun barrel.

John S:
Sounds like you've been there, and had em coming at you.

Experiences to share with us?

gs

One experience with a leopard charging the blind after being shot out of the tree and another involving a buffalo who took exception to me shooting his buddy! Alls well that ends well.

Saeed's video of the leopard going after the guy in the cab sort of said it all about the tempers of leopards.

Buffalo, well, too much...

gs

Boxing fans, please remind me as this was before my time....

I remember stories of a famous boxer (I just can't remember who it was) who, as a publicity stunt, in front of many TV cameras held his fist about 6" in front of about a 1000 lb steer's forehead. When all the cameras were zoomed in, he knocked the thing unconscious with a quick jab to the noggin.

Anybody remember any details? I know it doesn't exactly pertain to this thread, but the thread's title reminded me and now I'm curious as hell!

Jon:
I've boxed for a long time, and followed the sport for longer, and I don't remember that story.

Sounds like a Bruce Lee hype.
Or Carmen Basillio might have faked something like that, since I think he was the most famous boxer in the midwest to have
Sugar Ray knock him on his ass....

gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

John S:
What did you use to finish the leopard?

How about the buffs brother?

Could have been worse. Could have been another 3/4 million of the buffalo, like Bell said he faced;-)
gs

The leopard expired about 5ft from the front of the blind. We were lucky that evening because no follow up shots were offered due to visibility.
Buffalo's compadre offered a frontal chest shot, which I used, and as he turned a bit after getting my bullet the PH put a 416 into his shoulder/spine, which brought him down.