I'm currently considering my options on the purchase of a .470NE. Older English doubles are a possibility but so is a relatively new Beretta 455 with its H&H based sidelock action. I'll be using this gun on my next trip to Africa for buff and lion. Anyone here have any thoughts, insight, or experience with this rifle?

If that is the route you are considering, I would take a close look at this rifle which I feel may be a better value.
[


Pre-War 470 Holland & Holland built in 1931. $25K.

Found at teh Champlin Arms website.

I would also look at a Searcy PH model for a mere $9500. Spend the extra bucks on trophy fees in Africa.

I prefer an English gun. If you ever want to sell the Beretta it may be difficult. The same goes for all continent guns.

500,
I've been out of town the past few days and just found your post. That H&H you posted is a beautiful gun. I went to the Champlin Arms website and read about it. I'll contact them tomorrow and see if that gun is still available. I have a feeling it may not be, however, because I called them last Tuesday and discussed what I was looking for with a fellow there named "JJ", that NE450No2 kindly suggested that I talk to. He did mention that one gun they had that sounded like what I might like had just been sold. Don't know if it was this one or not, but he told me he would be looking and would call me whenever they found a gun that I might like. That said, I still like that Beretta and am giving it strong consideration. The actual gun I�m considering has been featured in Sporting Classics as well and the Winter 2003 issue of Double Gun Journal. That doesn't make that much difference to me, but it does seem to be a well made firearm. I do understand that it does not have the aura of the great old British rifles, and it may not have the appreciation potential because of its lack of numismatic qualities, but a well made sidelock, even one made in recent years, can still have its appeal.
Thanks for your help and I hope to hear from Champlin Arms soon.

there is a nice merkel 470 nitro up here for 6000 us brand new never been fired except by factory for testing and regulation.

call buffalo gun center at 1-716-833-2581 i handled this gun personally and it is worth every bit of 6000 it dosnt have edgectors but has extractors and had some nice engravings and real nice wood.

You have to be careful of Italian Double Rifles. Like their cars they are beautiful to look at but high maintanance.

There are a number of much better rifles than any Beretta on the market if you are in the $25-30,000 area. You need to look at Dealers and not Guns America and such.

spring is that a r-93 in the pic of you and the buffalo

Yes, it's a R93. I put a .375 barrel on it when in Africa and it was fantastic in every way on that hunt. The gun is a pleasure to shoot.

I agree Mick! I have taken a lot of the Continent guns apart and can honestly say that "The fit and finnish is definitely lacking".

Just for fun, some other options:

Westley Richards with 470 and 450/400 barrels for $48K:



Franconette 500 Nitro for $58K:



Purdey 500/465 for $66K:

I have owned several Continental double rifles & can sum them up intwo words "Pretty weak" They are definately both pretty & weak. Had a 9.3x74R that would easily close with a business card between the barrels and breech after 4 boxes of factory ammo. By the time you work up a good load the gun needs rebuilt. The British doubles will wear out several shoulders & still close like a bank vault. If you don't want to spend the bucks for a Holland consider some of the less famous makers or a Searcy. They are all superior to the guns form the continent. Apparently the Europeans really shoot their shotguns but rarely fire rifles.

And now for the best choice of all, a Searcy PH model for $9500:







If you insist on a sidelock, here is a Searcy sidelock rifle for only $18K.

500,
I checked on that H&H that you mentioned to me a few days ago, and as I suspected, it has a deposit on it and is expected to be sold. I had a great conversation with George at Champlin. Basically he said that the demand for quality double rifles soared around the time of the SCI conventions and his inventory is severely depleted. He suspected the strengthening economy had something to do with that. Interestingly, George said he felt he has had more involvement with double rifles than anybody on the planet, saying that he has probably been involved with as many as 2,000 of them. No doubt he's a fan of the old British guns. Since I've got about 16 months before my next safari, I guess I'll try to be patient and see what pops up on the radar screen. Not the easiest thing to do when you get excited about something special like a new gun!
That Wesley Richards you posted is a beauty! Aside from its price, I don't think I won't to sink the extra bucks into a double just to get the second barrel. How much do you think that feature impacts the price of a gun like that?

500Grains is right the Searcy PH is a great gun..
hand down that is IF you cant live with out a double

On the other side of the coin i was going to take
as a back up gun my and dont any of you laugh i mean it to..
My Marlin GS with some of these


GARRETT'S 45-70 EXITER AMMO
$180 / 20 CTGS

500-GRAIN SPEER TUNGSTEN SOLID AT 1530-FPS

FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, AND MARLIN REPEATING RIFLES.
ENERGY: 2600 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 50; MEPLAT: .235"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-cup; SMALL-PRIMER; CCI 41 MILITARY-SPEC PRIMER; CUSTOM SMALL PRIMER POCKETED NICKEL-PLATED STARLINE BRASS; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS, ZERO @ 100-YDS, -6" @ 150-YDS
I said no one laugh
i tryed them out and gezzz thay really do the trick thay out do my 416 rigby hands down and there fired out of a levelaction for god sakes..
now this does not mean by a long shoot i want to go toe to toe
with a rhino with them but i will take on a cape anyday

Just my thought and by the way the gun cost me 500.00
cheap .. the ammo is a killer at 180.00 a box though

Pottsy

Pottsy, those are just Speer AGS bullets, so you can buy them as components and reload your own at a substantial savings if you like how they work. Since the cannelure of the bullet does not line up with the case mouth, how well does the bullet stay in place during recoil?

I checked for just this thing > bullet movment<
I have shot 1 box and 18 rounds through my GS i have
quick fired 4 round and drop the last out to check 4 times and not ones did the bullets move .even if thay had moved i would have pulled the slugs and place new Cannelures
farther up on the bullet .I do have the tools



The Corbin Hand Cannelure Tool .

And yes its just a soild tongston bullet .. as i also make
them myself out of powdered tungston..








TUNGSTEN POWDER for HIGH ENERGY BULLETS
Corbin is now providing hydrogen-reduced 99.9% purity tungsten powder in 7,000 and 70,000 grain flasks, for use as core material in high energy density bullets. A 1% wax component is vapor deposited on the fine flour-like tungsten grains, which helps it flow without bridging and packs together firmly with moderate pressures. The material can be poured, metered, or dipped into bullet jackets, and swaged into a non-toxic core that is heavier than lead of the same volume. The effective density of the EZ-Flow Tungsten powder depends on the pressure applied, but ranges from 1.1 to 1.4 times the density of solid lead and up to 1.7 times the density of powdered lead.

Normal weight bullets can be made shorter, or the same length bullet required for good feeding in an autoloader can now be made heavier (with the proper powder type and charge, of course). In addition, the bullet maker can experiment with shifting the center of gravity (balance point) of any bullet by using a combination of lead and tungsten powder. A small amount of tungsten in a hollow point cavity will shift the balance forward, reducing the need for as fast a twist rate to maintain accuracy. A small amount of tungsten in the base area shifts the balance backward, which decreases stability and may help prevent the "over-stabilized" long range bullet that tends to maintain the same angle (attitude) at which it was launched. Such experiments can also be done using Corbin's "Bullet Balls" (linear polyethylene spheres in various sizes and colors, which reduce the bullet weight for higher velocity without changing the length). Combinations of the polymer balls and tungsten powder can create extreme shifts of balance, or allow extremely light yet long bullets by placing the heavy material toward the tip and the light plastic toward the rear, good for short range bullet accuracy with extremely high velocity (using appropriate charge of fast burning powder).

Tungsten is a stable, non-toxic material with a melting point of 3410-degrees C. and a specific gravity of 19.3 (water = 1). You can download the Material Safety Data Sheet in Adobe Acrobat PDF format by selecting the highlighted words in this sentence (save it to disk). The 7,000 grain flask holds 2 ounces of water; the 70,000 grain flask holds a pint of water, bearing witness to the extreme density of high purity tungsten powder in the 30 micron particle range. The 7,000 grain flask will make approximately 70 jacketed 150 grain bullets, assuming the jacket weighs about 50 grains (typical). The cost per bullet is 28.6 cents, reasonable for high performance specialty bullets that sell in the range of 70 cents to over a dollar fifty each on today's custom bullet market but not suitable for most target bullets. The 70,000 grain flask makes approximately 700 bullets at a cost of 25 cents each. The jacket typically adds seven to eight cents to the total bullet cost. Corbin suggests using the 7000 grain flask to develop new products, and then switch to the 70,000 grain flask once sales have been established. A retail sale price in the range of $19.50 to 37.50 per box of 20 is well within the average for specialty custom bullets today.

TUNGSTEN
W Melts: 3387 deg.C.
Density: 19.3 gm/cc
Hardness: 8.9 Mohs

I have been swaging my own bullet since 1964 ,
I started off with a set of swag dies I got from a very good friend of mine Ted Smith...

Pottsy

Spring, I am no expert on vintage gun values, but my guess is that the extra barrels and case add about 10K to the value of that rifle.



C&H .475 for $24K.









WR .577 for $59K:







Purdey .470 for $75K