I don't need either, I'm not going to shoot and elephant (the only animal I have a conscience about) but I want a "real" elephant rifle! I have a .458 Whitworth and love the rifle, wow is it accurate.

I have a P-14 action, ears ground off, cocks on opening, and a trigger, $45. I have a buddy (a for real gunsmith)that will rebarrel it for me, I just pay for the barrel. He'll drill and tap it, I was going for a peep sight (an old match shooter and I happen to have one laying around) and put it in a laminated stock for the weight. I pay him back by bead blasting guns prior to them being blued and helping him out during this process. Now the real question,.505 Gibbs or .458 Lott?

I'll be going to RSA in 04 and probably will take it for buffalo. The Gibbs reeks of Africa, the brass is really not a problem becasue I probably won't buy over 60 rounds. Bullets, well you guys know the prices better then me. I thought of the .500 Jeffery but the rebated rim cause me some concern. On the other hand .458 Lott has a lot to offer. The cost of the rifle will be under $400. Recoil with my .458 doesn't get me to flinching, off hand, until about round number 10, so I don't know how much of a wimp I am. Consider all I have said and help me out.

I ment to spell thoughts correctly, but, hell I have bigger things on my mind.

Lemme help...
do the whitwork into a lott (100 bucks for the reamer) and be done with it...

the enfield is a challenge to get right, frankly, the lott might out penetrate the 535gr jeffe.. even though i have built a jeffe on an enfield, geting it to feed is rough...

if you really want to do a .510", do a 510wells/ a-square... 460 weatherby blown out to 500... it's cheap brass and easy to get feeding.

jeffe

500grains, the budget isn't $400, that is what I will have in my "experiment." My friend has make other big bore rifles and if it doesn't work, then I still have fun of at least trying, then I will take my .416 Rigby with me to RSA.

The .458 Whitworth has a short magazine box and I don't think the action is long enough, without removing metal for the .458 Lott. Let me know if I'm wrong on this count. I thought about that but then I wouldn't have a .458 Win Mag. Besides it shoots so good, that old saying comes to mind, "how do you keep a H O, hard? Don't f with it!"

Mr. Buhmueller (probably spelled it wrong), a famous old time barrel maker, inventor of big bore cartridges, and long time African hunter used P-14 and P-17 actions in Africa on many culling operation. Heck, he didn't even grind the ears off the action or change the stocks when he was experimenting with his cartridges. These actions are used by A-Square some how, just some how they seem to make thing function.

Well if you want a bigger hammer then get a bigger hammer and thats the 505 Gibbs...It really lays them down I can attest to that, and the recoil is just a bit more than the Lott..both of which are offensive to me.

Hack,
the whitworth just need new bottom metal or your existing opened up.. it's a markx/brno mauser 98, and it will fit anything that will fit the 98... including the lott.

the enfield is a chore to do, but once you ahve it done, it's pretty fun..

the 500 jeffe, with 535 at 2300, is all i want in recoil.. will make the 470 seem "pleasant" when i get one
jeffe

Hacksaw,

If you want a Gibbs, then all the more power to you. I suggest that you send the action and barrel to Dennis Olson in Plains, MT and let him do it right the first time. You will definitely be pleased with the result.

I agree with Jeffe that a 500 A-Square is a better choice. You can use commonly available .510 bullets. More importantly, you can get good quality Norma brass for cheap.

hacksawtom
You already have a good 458 bore rifle. The P-17 is a natural for the 505 [or any 500 bore, pick the case you like]. I would go for the big 50.
For buff I like 500 Nitro ballistics [570gr. at @2150fps], better than typical 500 bore bolt rifle ballistics [525gr/535gr. at @ 2300fps], but I will admit I like heavy bullets.
Using the 505 Gibbs case would make it a true African Classic. Cast bullets would make great practice loads.

As one of my friends used to say, "If you are going to be a Bear.... be a Grizzly."

[ 07-26-2003, 05:08: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Once you have a Gibbs, appreciation for it grows. The case is beautiful. The bullets are beautiful. The effect on game is beautiful. It's no harder to load for than any other bottleneck case and the P14 action is a prime candidate.

If you have ever really tried to make a 505 Gibbs on a P-14 please stand up! This is absolutely no job for a "friend" who's made big bores before! All you'll wind up with is a gun that won't feed or extract! If Dennis Olsen will do it for $1000, he's a fool! I've done it and assuming I charged for the machine work alone ( which I won't) it would be more like $2000. Save yourself alot of grief and buy a Granite Mountain or Vektor action already set up for a 505 Gibbs.
The 505 Gibbs kicks harder than a 500 Jefferey IMHO and unless your an experienced Big Bore shooter save some cash for the local doc to stitch up your eyebrow! No offense, just my two sense and I've made 505 Gibbs rifles before!-Rob

OK, you guys got me convinced, it's the .458 Lott. To get use to the .458 Win Mag, I loaded 500 gr. cast bullet until I got use to 1800 fps, then switched to the 405 gr. 45-70 bullets at 2000 fps. I traded 100 rds. of green tip 5.56 for 100 rds. of factory Remington .458. I made a "standing" bench rest to check accuracy and took a suggestion to load the magazine. Sure enough the factory rds., caused the floor plate to release and it dumped the ammo in the magazine. I've got that fixed, but it still makes me wary. Now by reloading I can get an honest 2100 fps with no pressure signs in the Nevada 110 degree heat. With an abundance of jack rabbits I can make it thru a morning of jump shooting them without having the recoil getting to me. Anyone have anyother suggestions on building up a tolerance to recoil?

Hacksaw- The recoil level of a 458 Win is WAY WAY below that of even a 458 Lott. The 505 gibbs is on another plane. You can conqueor the recoil with a good Muzzel brake, a F990 pad and experience, but beware! Most guys wind up with a bad flinch and become literally afraid of their guns. You really don't want that! Only fool with a Lott if your really intending to kill something big in Africa. Unless that's the case, don't bother with a Lott unless you have a major urge to prove yourself!-Rob

Weight is your friend with big bores. My previous 458 lott weighed 9#'s, and with it's crappy stock, 500 gr @ 2270 fps was brutal off the bench. Using the same crappy stock, I now have an 11# 500 Jeffrey, and while 600 gr @ 2200 fps loads moved me much further back from recoil, and dumped the sand bags on the ground after each shot, the gun wasn't as unpleasant to shoot as the lott.

The P-14 to lott is a fairly easy conversion, and they can be made to feed and extract w/o much effort. If you keep the weight around 10#'s and change, and use a proper stock with a thick squishy pad, you'll have a very shootable gun.

If you want to go bigger then the lott, then the 500 a-square, or any of the many other variants off the 460 W case are the way to go. 500 Jeffrey and 505 Gibbs brass is much more exspensive, and much harder to get ahold of. This group put together a relatively large order from Hornbear, and it is about a year later with us still waiting for brass.

Paul,

It feels like a year but it has only been 4 months since the money was sent to Dieter. Don't want to scare anyone from the 505.

rgds,

steve

If you want to defeat recoil then don't work up to it work down to it....most have got it backwards....Shoot a 500 for awhile and then go back to the 458 Lott and it will seem a pussycat..

Years ago I thought the 338 kicked like hell, then I started shooting the 404 and 416. When I went back to the 338, the felt recoil was like that of a 22 short, absolutly nothing...

If working your way up to full loads worked then why would one be any better off shooting down loaded ammo as opposed to shooting a 300 win mag for instance...were this a reasonable option then none of us would have a flinch by going up in caliber as we worked our way up with the 300......It just doesn't work that way boys, and if it did then it was only in your mind...Going down in caliber works..so shoot the big ones and try not to flinch then go shoot a little less guna and never look back...

Hmmmm...Ray double posted. Must still be twitching after the afternoon benchresting the 8-bore rifle with the 1000-grainers, and he hit the button twice.

It's how far you can carry it and what happens on the receiving end and not the recoil, but he's right about the popgun effect: after a while it doesn't bother you unless you hold it stupid, and then the learning curve is really steep. I take telling people how to benchrest a .338-.378 very seriously. It's almost a popgun for me because it fits perfectly with Pachmayr F990, but it's absolutely mandatory to tell people to stay away from the scope ("Don't worry, it'll come find you when you pull the trigger.") or we have to get the vacuum extraction kit out to get it back out of their eye sockets...people think .338s are not big bores, but a .338-.378 is 5000 ft-lbs.

I've got a .450 Rigby that weighs 10.25 lbs., has a KickEze and two mercury buffers. I worked up to it over six months by shooting one round the first week, two the second and so on . . . with a shooting jacket and double shoulder pads. Once I was at 5 aimed, unflinched rounds, I started over with just the shirt but off shooting sticks, not the g*dd****d bench! Once a big bore is sighted in at your chosen range (I like 70 yards) get off the bench. That way you aren't brutalized by the recoil. Just incidently, sticks are what you'll do in Africa anyway.

And Ray is dead right about coming back down on recoil. After the Rigby, my .375 felt like a .223!

SDS,
When you get a double post from me you know the phone is ringing and business is good and I lose track of the add reply...

With Ray's logic:

You want to get used to getting hit in the head by the world heavyweight Karate champion.

Find a Cape Buffalo, let it kick you in the head a few times, then fight the guy.

Or better yet, find a 600 pound lion that likes to play, and take a few shots from his paws, then fight anybody, and they will seem to move in slow motion, and hit like a baby girl.


Having followed Ray's approach, fighting heavyweights, first, then going after lightweights and, at the time, my own weight, middleweights, I will attest his logic works.

However, as I'm pointing out in this illustration, there is a point where the plan fails to work...and results in severe damage, and or, death.

I would strongly suggest starting with a screw on muzzle brake, as Ray has also suggested, and work to taking it off for shooting animals.

Spare your body the damage...

s

[ 08-07-2003, 04:31: Message edited by: Socrates ]