Not sure what you mean by "lock up the rifle"? I assume you mean when the safety is in the middle position the trigger is locked and if the bolt gets slightly raised its not possible to move the safety forward to the off position. This is intentional otherwise the gun could be fired with the bolt out of battery. The same is true with a Mauser flag safety. I do agree using this the middle position is asking for trouble. The intent of the middle position is really to disassemble the bolt and remove cartridges while still having the safety on.

Earlier I said I liked the 1917 Enfield most of all for a two position safety which weatherby also uses on their mark V, but I also like and the majority of my rifles have the 3 position M70 safety which I like a lot.

In my mind familiarity with whatever safety is on a gun is most the important factor. Train until its second nature, I practice dry firing my rifles, including using the safety while doing it. I learned this from years of shooting action pistol events. I do it until its second nature. Any safety is only as good as it's user makes it.

I have to say the one safety system I absolutely can't stand is the current Remington 700 unlocked bolt and flimsy trigger safety. To me it's just a cheap fix to a deeper design problem that needed a better thought out solution to be effective and safe.

BRNO ZG-47 has the best safety I have come across!

Up in Safe and locks bolt. Pull back to fire, like cocking a revolver.

Not sure what you mean by "lock up the rifle"?[/QUOTE]

If in the middle position on a Model 70, the bolt is slightly lifted, then the safety can no longer be shifted to fire OR safe. Pretty much takes the rifle out of play until you figure out that the bolt has been lifted and needs to be pushed down to change the safety position.
Only a slight lift of the bolt will do this. Not good in a panic situation.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

I'm very interested in other's opinions around here. Posts: 174 | Location: Peoples Republic Of California | Registered: 13 October 2009
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Exactly, why I prefer a tang safety Ruger 77 over a Winchester 70. The 3 position safety on the Winchester is not intuitive the tang safety is. Much faster for me to get the shot off quickly.

No argument here, I fully agree

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Why do more rifles not come with tang safeties?

Most big bores don't have tang safeties because the can rip your thumb up in many instances such as the Ruger 77 and some others..

They also tend to bump off in the window rifle racks on PU's and safari trucks, as that part of the grip fits in the "loop" for lack of a better word..

Some folks like them and I have no problem with them on a double rifle, or a single shot, but don't want them on my bolt rifles. I don't put my doubles or SS in a gun rack of any kind however. I also file then flatter, and checker them ala a shotgun, but some tell me that's a bad practice as your thumb can slip and perhaps they have a point, but so far so good, and I am aware of that so use a bit of care..

I find the M-70 safety extremely simple. It is a two position safety that locks the bolt until you need to open the action with a chambered round, then it has the middle position to keep the firing pin locked and allow the bolt to be opened.

A significant advantage of the M-70 safety is is does not operate in the same plane of motion as the trigger. Many other safeties operate in the same plane but the Rem 700 safety is the worst in this regard. I tested this several years ago.

I'd hand an unloaded rifle with the safety on to someone and ask them to disengage the safety. Virtually everyone, regardless of their experience with firearms, would grab the rifle with their right hand on the grip and their index finger lightly in the trigger guard. Yes, we all know this is a big no no and none of us would ever consciously do that, but the most comfortable and natural way to hold a rifle is with your finger in the trigger guard.

When they'd remove the safety, most would keep holding the rifle at the grip, and half of the people would wind up pulling the trigger when they released the safety with a Rem 700. The reason is for a lot of people, as they roll their hand forward to disengage the safety with their thumb, their index finger roll back.

Now this isn't something that you can go test your self on, because after reading this you will be very AWARE of what you are doing (the ULTIMATE safety device) and will not have the issue. You have to catch people as they are distracted. I personally think being distracted while disengaging the safety is what has caused most of the accidental discharges (ADs) with Rem 700 and their variants.

I discovered this phenomena when it happened to me personally. I was in a blind in South Texas and a decent buck stepped out about 250 yds away. I carefully lined up, got steady, and squeezed the trigger--and nothing happened. I immediately though "You idiot!!", and flicked off the safety with my thumb. The rifle fired.

I was stunned!! I had argued long and hard about how great the Rem 700 trigger was. I meticulously adjusted each of my triggers so they had a solid amount of sear engagement and enough pull weight (usually 3-3.5 lbs) where they would not go off unless the trigger lever was pulled. It would drop test the rifles from 12", would roughly work safety and roughly work the action, slamming it heard. If I could make the firing pin release in any of those situations I would increase pull weight and/or sear engagement until they did not fail.

When I got home I rechecked everything. The connector was solidly in place and it the rifle passed all my tests again. It's only when I noticed that my index finger would roll back as I released the safety that I discovered what had happened.

With a Rem 700 trigger, when the safety is engaged it lifts the sear off the trigger as the safety is engaged but does not block the trigger. For a brief instant when the safety is being disengaged there is very little pill weight on the trigger, so it's easy to have the trigger pressed and not know it. And if the safety is released with finger pressure on the trigger lever, the firing pin will release when the safety is pushed forward.

BTW, I watched the same thing happen to may dad years later with his Rem 721. He was additionally handicapped as he had lost the tip of his right thumb. As he removed the safety to unload his rifle it discharged. Again, there was nothing mechanically wrong with the trigger or safety. His finger rolled when he released the safety with his thumb. Thank God he practiced and preached muzzle control.

I tested this scenario with several other rifles. While they all had this issue to some degree, the 700 was the worst. It was awkward to keep your finger in the trigger guard while releasing the safety with the others I tested which included: Mk 5, M1917 Enfield, and M-70.

So like most here, I use these steps to ensure safer and reliable rifle functioning:

1. Maintain Situational Awareness (its a pilot thing that happens to apply to all things)
2. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
3. Practice and become proficient with the operation of the rifle
4. Make sure the rifle is in top notch mechanically condition
5. Keep the chamber empty as much as reasonable possible
6. When a round is chambered and not going to be fired immediately, the M-70 safety is in the fully locked position
7. Release the safety carefully with the index finger completely out of the trigger guard


Your results may vary.............

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I'd hand an unloaded rifle with the safety on to someone and ask them to disengage the safety. Virtually everyone, regardless of their experience with firearms, would grab the rifle with their right hand on the grip and their index finger lightly in the trigger guard. Yes, we all know this is a big no no and none of us would ever consciously do that, but the most comfortable and natural way to hold a rifle is with your finger in the trigger guard.

When they'd remove the safety, most would keep holding the rifle at the grip, and half of the people would wind up pulling the trigger when they released the safety with a Rem 700. The reason is for a lot of people, as they roll their hand forward to disengage the safety with their thumb, their index finger roll back.

I'm not saying this can't happen but this scenario is almost beyond belief. "Virtually everyone"? My wife shoots maybe once a year and she could be the poster child for "finger off the trigger until sights are on target". It's not automatic, it's instinct.

I won't repeat my "acutely aware" comment but I'd be very wary about hunting, or even plinking, with someone like you described.

INTJ,

Very interesting, you make some good points. Being distracted IS certainly one of the biggest causes of accidents of any kind. The M700 theory does make sense too.

Thanks for the info!

quote:

I'm not saying this can't happen but this scenario is almost beyond belief.

My thought too until I tested it. People are generally sloppy when handling firearms when distracted, and I am wary about EVERYONE I hunt or shoot with.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
INTJ,

Very interesting, you make some good points. Being distracted IS certainly one of the biggest causes of accidents of any kind. The M700 theory does make sense too.

Thanks for the info!

Glad I could provide a slightly different perspective...

Rem. has been settling law suits for ages on their trigger, as recently as last week, and more than a few folks died..True or false? but if the triggers worked properly, Rem wouldn't be spending all that money on lawyers is my take.

Remington should have hired Jack Belk as an expert witness instead of the plaintiffs.

quote:

I'd hand an unloaded rifle with the safety on to someone and ask them to disengage the safety. Virtually everyone, regardless of their experience with firearms, would grab the rifle with their right hand on the grip and their index finger lightly in the trigger guard. Yes, we all know this is a big no no and none of us would ever consciously do that, but the most comfortable and natural way to hold a rifle is with your finger in the trigger guard.

Different experiences for different people. I never put my finger inside the trigger guard until I am getting ready to shoot, if I am handing someone a gun, I tell the before I let go of the gun to keep their finger out of the trigger guard.

JMO, but putting a finger inside of a trigger guard, before finding out if the gun is loaded or not and whether the safety, regardless of style is in the safe position or not is asking for an accident, especially as light as some individuals have their trigger pull set at.

As far as safety types/styles I prefer a two stage safety, such as the tang safety on a Ruger.

I think the 2 position is easier, on/off. But...
I do like how the 3 position locks the bolt down to keep it from accidentally opening. I'm sure some 2 positions do that, but there are some that don't lock the bolt down.

The only other thing the that is nice about the 3 position is that it allows you to cycle all your rounds on safe for smoothing the action out or making sure all your rounds chamber. other than that, the middle position is more of a novelty in my eyes.

If the 2 position locks the bolt closed, I would take that over the 3 position.

My two position ones do lock the bolt. `

When cycling rounds through the action for function check, I find it much safer to remove the firing pin.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
My two position ones do lock the bolt. `

When cycling rounds through the action for function check, I find it much safer to remove the firing pin.

+1. Safety with firearms is paramount.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
My two position ones do lock the bolt. `

When cycling rounds through the action for function check, I find it much safer to remove the firing pin.

As I read the previous post these two exact points occured to me also.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Rem. has been settling law suits for ages on their trigger, as recently as last week, and more than a few folks died..True or false? but if the triggers worked properly, Rem wouldn't be spending all that money on lawyers is my take.

Much easier to settle than admit you have an ergonomic design prone to being mishandled.

I'm an outfitter for coastal Grizzlies / Brown bears and hunt African dangerous game (only two of the five thus far) for pleasure. My sincere preference as the guy often in front of the rifle is simply the safety the client will USE and know its operation intuitively. Personally my preference is a reverse Model 70 three position (swings left) but that's a fully custom affair. The standard Model 70 wing is stellar, there's a reason it's been adapted to pretty well everything. I carry a double rifle (below) as a backup gun often and like a tang safety, but they do get slippery when wet and with cold hands. Considering drilling and tapping, or welding an oversize button / knob to it. Remingtons... well I'd really rather something else.