The Accurate Reloading Forums
Two position safety vs three position safety
12 February 2017, 10:36
Joe from So. Cal.Two position safety vs three position safety
This is something I've been wanting to ask the pros, people who hunt dangerous game and the folks who have or have had lots of different rifles. Just today I was holding my pal's 8mm Mauser and it reminded me.
Again, I shoot for fun. The safety on my Weatherby seems almost intuitive. No thinking involved to put it into shooting mode. It just flicks right off. My buddy's Mauser has the familair three position wing. I admit I haven't handled it much but it didn't seem nearly as natural to use.
I get it that if the wing is sticking up, blocking your view, it may seem instictive to move it over but it seems to me the two position safety is superior. If I need to unload it, like any time I am holding a loaded rifle, I am acutely aware of the muzzle.
I'm very interested in other's opinions around here.
12 February 2017, 14:56
buckeyeshooterquote:
I'm very interested in other's opinions around here. Posts: 174 | Location: Peoples Republic Of California | Registered: 13 October 2009
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Exactly, why I prefer a tang safety Ruger 77 over a Winchester 70. The 3 position safety on the Winchester is not intuitive the tang safety is. Much faster for me to get the shot off quickly.
12 February 2017, 16:48
p dog shooterI own and use rifles and shotguns with them all it is just a matter of training your self.
I easily switch between them the only ones that give me fits every great while are the rifles that require you to pull back wards on the safety to fire them.
I only own one of them a marlin 22 bolt gun.
But then if I practice mounting it to the shoulder while taking the safety off a couple dozen times I am fine with it.
12 February 2017, 18:14
dogcatI hate the 3 position safety. I love the tang safety. I really love the Blaser system....
12 February 2017, 18:37
SevensI also favor the 2 position safety. I did a lot of upgrades on my DG rifle, a CZ, but the safety was not one of them.
12 February 2017, 19:51
458WinI also prefer a two position safety as it lessons the chance of something becoming FUBAR. But as pdog points out, you can train yourself to use anything
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
FAA Master pilot
NRA Benefactor
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com 12 February 2017, 20:46
BlacktailerI prefer a safety that locks the bolt closed whether it is the old Rem 2 position or a 3 position. Either works and can become intuitive if you practice with it.
Have gun- Will travel
The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark
12 February 2017, 21:48
shootawayI don't like a slide safety or a Reminton style safety on a bolt because it can interfere with bolt cycling.Locking the firing pin is another reason to go with a 3-pos safety.
12 February 2017, 21:52
jeffeossoi am ambivalent - the best safety is between one's ears -- as a 3 pos can do everything a 2 pos can, both are good
12 February 2017, 22:15
465H&HI have used both types for elephant hunting and never had a problem with either. With the three position safety, I usually carried it with the safety in the rear or locked position. When approaching eles, I would move the safety to the middle position where a simple flick of my thumb would take it off as I mounted the rifle. I never took the safety off until I was mounting the rifle for the shot.
465H&H
12 February 2017, 22:57
10generationI'd like a winchester style with just two positions as opposed to three
12 February 2017, 23:05
LR3Can somebody explain the problem I have with one three position rifle. In the middle setting I can pull the trigger and it clicks but does not fire however if I then push the safety in to the firing position for safety it fires. Is that normal with a three position safety?
12 February 2017, 23:44
Mike_DettorreLR3,
I do not what the problem is but that is NOT normal. That is a malfunctioning safety and or sear engagement.
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
12 February 2017, 23:45
458Winquote:
Originally posted by LR3:
Can somebody explain the problem I have with one three position rifle. In the middle setting I can pull the trigger and it clicks but does not fire however if I then push the safety in to the firing position for safety it fires. Is that normal with a three position safety?
That is exactly one of the FUBARS I was referring to. The safety is not completely pushing the striker as far back as necessary and is allowing it to slightly move forward when you pull the trigger and then when you take the safety off the firing pin drops.
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
FAA Master pilot
NRA Benefactor
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com 13 February 2017, 01:11
Ray BI prefer a safety that locks the firing pin, not just prevents the trigger from moving. If it also locks the bolt, so much the better.
13 February 2017, 01:35
Mike_DettorreLR3,
What kinda rifle is it?
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
13 February 2017, 02:26
LR3Thanks Mike for asking. It's a custom Frank Wells Gibbs 505 but whether mostly CZ Or Winchester 70 is unclear based on previous discussion. The conclusion was it's just a Frank Wells custom action. I had the bolt pin repaired a few years ago.
13 February 2017, 03:46
Fury01Hunting with an elderly friend who had a Remington 700 he loved, he flipped the safety off to take the round out of the chamber; very loud when it's pointed near ones feet... Fubar's come in many flavors. I like safeties that work. I like safeties that you can clear the chamber while still engaged. I use all kinds.
"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
13 February 2017, 04:27
p dog shooterI loaned a 03 sporter to a young lad he always insisted on having the safety in the up position.
Then he always had the rifle hanging from his shoulder from the sling.
I don't know how many times that deer season I would walk up to him and the bolt would be flopping open and he had lost the round in the chamber.
I am glad 03s have a very positive bolt stop release.
13 February 2017, 08:05
chuck375We have a late 60s vintage BDL in 270 I bought new with a 2 position safety. I like it just fine. When in the safe position the bolt is locked. We have an XCR II in 375 Weatherby, when on safe the bolt can slide free, gonna get that fixed. Also have a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery with Wayne at AHR's 3 pos M70 type safety. I like it better. Muzzle control and finger off the trigger unless you have decided to shoot no matter what kind of safety you have is the first rule in our house.
Regards,
Chuck
"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"
13 February 2017, 08:16
montea6bquote:
Originally posted by LR3:
Can somebody explain the problem I have with one three position rifle. In the middle setting I can pull the trigger and it clicks but does not fire however if I then push the safety in to the firing position for safety it fires. Is that normal with a three position safety?
The problem is that the safety lever is not camming the cocking piece back away from the sear. The click you hear is the trigger sear releasing and sending the cocking piece slamming against the safety lever. Then, since the cocking piece has already slipped past the trigger, the only thing holding it back is the safety lever, which now functions as the trigger.
You mentioned you had the "bolt pin" worked on a few years ago, may I assume that it only did this after the repair work? If so you should take it back. Something was botched, but without knowing what was worked on it is kind of difficult to surmise how it happened...
13 February 2017, 10:06
Joe from So. Cal.quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i am ambivalent - the best safety is between one's ears -- as a 3 pos can do everything a 2 pos can, both are good
I agree with this. Jeff Cooper has said this many times also.
13 February 2017, 19:28
dirklawyerFor myself, if all bolt rifles came with a tang safety the hunting world would be a better place. I have three position safeties on all of my rifles, being that they are Winchester M70's and Ruger M77 Hawkeye's that is what I have etched between my ears, thus no FUBAR has occurred in the past 46 years due to the 3 position safety.
"An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument"
14 February 2017, 05:40
AtkinsonLR3, your safety was not installed properly, you need a gunsmith and probably a new cocking piece that's been butchered..
Two or three piece safety bothers me not one bit, they both suit me..
Probably my favorite safety is the butt ugly hammer safety on the Enfield or early Remington mod. 30s..especially on a DG rifle..
14 February 2017, 05:42
Atkinsonquote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
LR3, your safety was not installed properly, you need a gunsmith and probably a new cocking piece as yours has probably been butchered. It can be welded back up but cocking pieces are cheap..
Two or three position safety bothers me not one bit, they both suit me..
Probably my favorite safety is the butt ugly hammer safety on the Enfield or early Remington mod. 30s..especially on a DG rifle..
14 February 2017, 06:40
LR3Thanks will send it to somebody else for repairs. I never noticed it doing this before the bolt pin work but could not be sure.
14 February 2017, 10:33
Cougarzquote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Two or three position safety bothers me not one bit, they both suit me..
Probably my favorite safety is the butt ugly hammer safety on the Enfield or early Remington mod. 30s..especially on a DG rifle..
I'm with Ray on the 1917 Enfield safety, there isn't any doubt whether it's on or off. Great design.
Roger
___________________________
I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along.
*we band of 45-70ers*
14 February 2017, 11:41
Sean RussellWhat I really like is a 3 position on the Left side of the bolt.
"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain
TANSTAAFL
www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa.
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14 February 2017, 15:18
xausaI have hunted with early Model 70 Winchesters with the three position safety on the left side of the bolt sleeve and with the modern version of the safety on the right hand, with double rifles with tang safeties and double triggers and double shotguns with tang safeties and single triggers. My heavy African rifle is based on a P14 Enfield action and has the original safety.
I have Mausers with two position safeties on the right AND on the left hand of the bolt sleeve, as well as some with Model 70 type safeties, but the only ones I could never get used to are the two position safeties on the right side of BRNO ZG47 and ZKK600 series rifles, which must be pulled to the rear to disengage them. I have had all of them changed to Model 70 three position safeties before hunting with them.
All my bolt rifle safeties have to lock both the firing pin and the bolt when fully engaged. The only exception to this rule is a sole Ruger Model 77, which I bought to experiment with. I have never taken it in the hunting field and don't plan to.
I really prefer the Model 70 safety, which mimics the military style wing safety in allowing the rifle to be loaded and unloaded with the safety engaged in the mid position while securely locking the bolt in the rear position.
14 February 2017, 19:28
WstrnhuntrI was brought up to use an empty chamber as the primary safety. Which is by far the most fool proof. I only chamber a round when I am either ready to shoot or when stalking close. So I really dont get too worked up about safetys. I do like a good tang safety, but three position safety's dont bother me at all. Even they are faster than chambering a round, and that doesnt take that long either. The worst safety in the world is the one that is prone to failure, irregardless of how "convenient" it may be. I will even take a good sound Mauser wing type safety over that one any time. And if I miss out on a shot because I wasnt instantaneously on top of it in a split second, that just means I get to hunt some more.
I will also add that I like the innovative safetys that are now found on weapons like the H&R single shot and some pistols, with the little plate that lifts with the hammer. They seem pretty fool proof and very clever. If anyone has had any failures with those I would be interested in hearing about it.
AK-47
The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like.
15 February 2017, 04:19
barrywI prefer the 3 position "Winchester Model 70" type of safety. Does any company other than Ruger make a 223 with a 3 position. I am not interested in a custom gun or a lot of retrofitting of a safety
Thanks for your information.
19 February 2017, 09:21
DoglegI like a safety that locks the striker instead of
The trigger. Next in priorityI want to be able to lock the bolt handle down. Somewhere around third place I like to be able to unload the gun with the safety on, but I can live without it.
That sort of leaves me with the M70 style as a favorite because I can have it all. Other than that I've got 2 position safeties that lock the striker but not the bolt handle, 2 position safeties that lock the striker and the bolt handle, 2 position safties that lock neither the striker or
the bolt, 2 position that lock
The bolt but have a release to unlock the bolt. I've even got rifles that have a 3 position safety that will lock or unlock the bolt handle but doesn't lock the striker.
Is wanting something a little more substantial than a trigger block and a few thousandths of sear engagement away from firing too much to ask?
19 February 2017, 19:49
Jim KobeThese lock the bolt and the striker, I have a half dozen avilable, the bottom, ones
Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437
952.884.6031
Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild
20 February 2017, 02:23
Colin Mastersquote:
identical
Are these the style safety that I bought from you for my whitworth .375, i.e. the two position that lock both the striker and the bolt?
20 February 2017, 03:28
mdstewartI put Timney triggers and two position side safeties on all my custom rifles because they are faster and I don't need to think when hunting. A three position wing safety just seems redundant to me as I grew up shooting double shotguns with tang safeties. One of the reasons why I love Ruger #1's.
JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72
David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore
Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle
Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55
Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06
Walther PPQ H2 9mm
Walther PPS M2
Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus
And Too Many More
20 February 2017, 05:22
LHeym500I will be in the minority and state my undying love for the 3 position wing safety.
My favorite being the Ruger. My thumb can rest over it, and I can engage it with a full shooting grip on and off.
20 February 2017, 05:32
Sean Russellquote:
Originally posted by barryw:
I prefer the 3 position "Winchester Model 70" type of safety. Does any company other than Ruger make a 223 with a 3 position. I am not interested in a custom gun or a lot of retrofitting of a safety
Thanks for your information.
Kimber Montana
"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain
TANSTAAFL
www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa.
DSC Life
NRA Life
20 February 2017, 06:18
INTJM-70 theee position safety is the best there is.
20 February 2017, 17:42
Jim Kobequote:
Originally posted by Colin Masters:
quote:
identical
Are these the style safety that I bought from you for my whitworth .375, i.e. the two position that lock both the striker and the bolt?
Yes
Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437
952.884.6031
Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild
21 February 2017, 04:10
PeglegDoes the Model 70 safety lock up the rifle while in the middle position when the bolt is slightly raised? Yep it does and is very dangerous if carried in that position. People who hunt or stalk this way are asking for real trouble if chasing something that bites, stomps or gores. Especially in a difficult stalk like in heavy bush or thick, tall grass.
I like the side swing two position safety located on the left side. I think this is the fastest safety to a secure grip for a quick shot in a heated situation.
The only easy day is yesterday!
