I'm going to have a big bore built and am not sure which way to go. The rifle will be used mainly for Brown Bear and hopefully on Cape Buff in 2005. I am limited to left hand actions. For my application what are the real differences between the 416s and the big 45s?

Antlers

If you want more versatile rifle go for a 416 rigby. It can be used for big bears and be taken to Africa for big game. The 416 will take buffalo or elephant if you do your job properly.

A 416 rigby is easier to handle well, which is important, putting the bullet were it's needed

Cheers

/ JOHAN

I may catch hell for this but I can see no real reason to go with a big .45 as a "big bore" or a .375 as a mid-bore. I own a .416 Rem Mag in a somewhat modified Model 70 and have hunted extensively with it and for your purposes this might just be the perfect round. For a client hunting cape buffalo, any of the popular .416s (Rigby, Rem., Hoffman, 500/416 etc.) offer plenty of penetration and energy in a package that is not going to pound the hell out of the shooter. Keep in mind while making your decision that the Rem Mag round offers identical ballistics to the Rigby without needing a larger and therefore more expensive action. Obviously, the 500/416 is a rimmed double rifle cartridge.

Being that you also live in "bear country" it might also be perfect for you for this reason. I actaully took a Wood Bison in the Yukon last February with my .416 and the guide said he had NEVER seen one of these giants go down any faster.

I think the ideal African AND North American Battery might just be a .30-06 with 220 grian bullets, a .416 with 400 grainers and a .505 Gibbs as the Big-bore of the bunch.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to go with a "big" bore, you might as well do it right and a .458 just doesn't fit the bill for me in that regard.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

[ 10-15-2002, 01:48: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

Have you fired any 416's or 45's? There is a noteable difference in the recoil, I find the 416 level to be tollerable, and the 45 level ie 500 gr @ 2200 fps plus to be at a level where I have to put extra concentration into each shot, at least in a 9# rifle.

My first big bore was a CZ .416 Rigby and if you want a .416 these are great value. Recoil is fine, I shoot the 410 gr woodeleigh SN's and they only shoot 2" lower than the 340 gr woodeligh's at 300 yards. CZ mounts also work really well and you would as other people said have package that would do the lot.

Paul H, I've shot two 416s - Rem and Rigby. Recoil was not a problem. The Rem fit me better and was comfortable off-hand. I've only shot a 458 Win and recoil was noticeably heavier, but tolerable. For nostalgia's sake, I really like the thought of a 404 or the Rigby, but I am open to the Rem. However, if the difference on game was substantially noticeable with a big 45, I would probably go that route. I don't believe CZ makes a left hand action or I would have already purchased one in 416 Rigby.

I think the cz550 in a 416 Rigby is a heck of a great value. The 416 with it's longer bullet is the hands down penetration winner over the .45s.

In a double rifle the 500/416 or the 450/400 3 inch are my choices for chamberings!

Any 416 is a no brainer, just buy and shoot it!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Everyone knows I love the 416s. And there's a reason. They dont kick YOUR a$$ as much

I would, for pure nostalgia, choose a 416 rigby on a cz, and restock it. Sorry guys, i dislike the stock.. nearly as much (well, 1/2 as much) as I do sissyslots. And put a model 70 3pos on it. the ruger is AWESOM bue since I usually restock em, it's not woth the extra to me
(richard has one of these, and we shoot it alot)

second choice, and what I lucked into, is a restocked model 70 in 416. slap some QD scope mounts on it, and go hunting. i'll say the recoil is ~85% of a rigby, at the same vel, campared to a CZ stock.

next would be just about anything, starting with CRF into 416 taylor. Just what the doctor ordered, 2300 fps, 400 gr whatever.
mike has one I did for him

376 steyr aww, just banging my own gong here.

The 458 lott is a great choice, too, but falling back to 458 winn is a good plan, but not the power you want. There's at least a chance you'll find 416 ammo from alaska to zimbabwe

if you leave the 416, go for a www.470mbogo.com or 500 a2, 510wells, 500 jeffery.
jeffd

Since you're requiring a left handed action, you best bet is the M70 in .416 Rem. CZ does not make a left hand action and it is a must if you want a really big case cartridge. Fortunately, the .416 Rem will do just what you want. It will nail big bears and thump buffalo with authority. It will even do elephant. However, should you feel the slightest lack of confidence in the 40-bore, it must be stated that a Class III .45, like my Rigby, doesn't just neatly dispatch ol' Mbogo, it knocks him DOWN. I absolutely agree that the .416 is more versatile and thus more useable. Class III's are for those emergencies that we'd rather not have happen (but do no matter how hard we try to avoid them).

Oldsarge, are you exaggerating with the "knocking down" statement? I have it on good authority, that no shoulder held rifle can "knock down" any big game animal!

Axel

Axel,

Not true! Hit em in the central nervous system or high in the shoulder and you can drop critters from now until the cows come home. I've done it repeatedly. Now, a proper shot to the heart lung area will kill an animal but not knock it down (with authority) whether you are using a 30-06 or .505 Gibbs on any decent sized game from Kudu to Buffalo.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Thank you Oldsarge for remembering Left Hand. Left Hand! So all of the Mausers, CZ's, pre-64's and such are out of the running.

That leaves a current production .375 Model 70 Safari Express that can be rebarreled to .416 or any of the "standard" length magnum bolt face LH M70's that can be rebarreled to .458. No stainless LH Model 70's available unless you can blackmail someone into giving theirs up. There was a NIB leftie M70 in 7mm STW on auction at either gunbroker.com or auctionarms.com but that was a month or more ago. I don't think it sold so you might search the archives and contact the seller directly. He wanted $700 IIRC.

Any Remington M700 LH is already long enough for the .416 and can be changed to that caliber by rebarreling. Obviously you will probably want to start off with a 7mm Magnum or .300 Win Mag to get the proper bolt face. Being a push feed you won't have to screw around with the feed rails. I'll politely refrain from the PF/CRF arguments. FWIW I think you could still find a LH stainless Model 700 in somebody's inventory with the proper belted magnum bolt face but they have changed all of their current production LSS models to the Ultra Magnum lineup.

With a LH Ruger M77 CRF you would be limited to a .458 as they do not make a long action to fit the .416 length rounds. You are also limited to chrome-moly rifles, they do not make a M77 leftie with a magnum bolt face in stainless.

Of course you always do more modifications and open up bolt faces and such but for bear and buffalo type critters I would not do that unless you were absolutely confident in your smith's abilities.

Not an expert by any means on non-USA manufactured brands so not sure what is currently manufactured in a suitable length and left hand action.

I'd say go with a Model 70 Safari Express and have it rebarreled to .416 Rem. Mag. That is likly to be your best, easiest and most reliable caliber conversion.

Or, if you have a spare $4,000 or so lying around call Dakota. They will deliver a fine LH fighting rifle in about three months (their time estimate).

Antlers

Sorry, I didn' know you were a goofy south paw

This kind of narrows things down. I hope you find something that fits after all.

/ JOHAN

Axel,
I don't know abny "good authorities," but when I put the bead on the buffalo's brisket and pulled the trigger, he sat down and fell over . . . and never got up. My partner took a broadside shot on another about 2 minutes later and touched one off and the buffalo dropped to his side. This one did get back up again, sick and wobbly, and we had to finish him off with a fusilade but he would have probably died if we had just waited another couple of minutes. So since I don't know any good authorities to believe in, I have to believe my eyes.

I guess my only option for a 404 or the Rigby would be the Dakota Magnum Action. What length action do I need for the 416 Taylor or Hoffman?

Shoot right handed. Only way I ever shot, and I'm left-handed...
s

The .404 is shorter than the .375 and any M98-length action will take it with only a tiny bit of opening at the rear. Of the 40-bores, it is the most practical for those building up a custom rifle. Forget the Taylor. As for the Hoffman it is so close to the Remington (being its direct ancestor) that there is no functional difference except to the extreme theorist. If you can afford the Dakota, get it. From all reports it is one fine gun and you can get it in anything you want. My previous advice comes from the cheap side . . . 'cause I am!

Sarge,
Are you saying that a .404 can be built on my pre-64 '06 length action with only slight modification? Thanks, Cobalt

I just took 4 Buffalo, 2 with a 416 REM MAG and two with a 470 NE. Since I had the 470 as a stopper, the 416 was loaded with 350 gr Swift A Frames. A head on shot at 125� yds nicked the spine, was loged under the skin in his butt. The second one was broadside at 150� hit just behind the shoulder, through both lungs, exited far side with a hole larger than my thumb. He ran about 75 yds where a second shot in the neck ended the round.

The 2 taken with the 470 were head on at 30 feet. I was using 500 Woodleigh soft in the right barrel,solids in the left. Both shots had the expected results.

I questions the PH about the longer shots because of the the 350 gr instead of 400. He comment was that a 300 grain in a 375 works very well, the 350 in a 416 is more than adequate.

You can draw your own conclusions, but if I had to do it with one weapon, the 416 would by my choice.

Jim

Cobalt,
Most of the pre-64 actions that I am aware of, even the .22 Hornet, were actually .375 length. Only the magazines were different. I suspect that if you measured the opening you would find that it would be bigger than you think. If not, then yes, with only a little fiddling your Winchester will make up into a truly delightful .404.

Good hunting,