Let's be accurate here, comparing gross water capacity of fireformed cases:

.375 Ruger, only one source available for cases, from Hornady: 101.1 grains

.375 H&H, WW-Super case is the largest capacity of several makes I have measured: 97.6 grains

That is 3.5 grains of water difference, not 3.0.

Innovation is a great thing, and as far as options for a hunter go, the more the merrier.

If you are comparing killing power in excess of 250 or 300 yards, the Ruger has the H&H beat. You cetainly do not need that kind of velocity for terminal performance on game unless you are shooting at long range.

But, unless Ruger has some kind of magic bullets, it is virtually impossible to shoot the same bullet out of a case with the same powder capacity without changing one of the ballistic variables. Make the case shorter and fatter, use a high degree neck taper, and you essentially reduce the area of detonation, causing a higher pressure build up which results in higher velocity. That variable is increasing chamber pressure.

There is more pressure associated with a bullet of the same weight and caliber leaving the barrel at 2700 fps than one leaving the barrel at 2400 fps. And that 10%+ increase in velocity does come with a price.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. 300 fps more out the barrel increases backward recoil velocity. No slow push there. Both the H&H and Ruger will have almost the same foot pound recoil numbers; but the Ruger recoil will move that total recoil into your shoulder faster.

Everyone's recoil tolerance is different. Some guys are not bothered by a 577 nitro express but cringe at a 340 Weatherby. Other guys can shoot something like a 378 Weatherby with no problem, but cringe at the over 500 Nitro rounds. Shoot the rifle - if you like it go for it.

One additional thing to keep in mind regarding the bigger chamberings with higher pressures - barrel life is shortened measurably.

I recall when Uncle Sam was looking at options to a 50 BMG sniper rifle, primarily to reduce the weight of the platform and hopefully make it a one man operation. The 338 Lapua seemed like a natural choice - the trajectory curve was almost an overlay of the 50. Lighter ammo, lighter platform.

But, one of the specs was barrel life. And those tests quickly narrrowed the field to one manufacturer. The 250 grain 3000 fps bullets ate barrels.

Just talk to some of the bench rest shooters out there to see how long their barrels last.

Like I said, if the Ruger is for you, go for it. If you are not bothered by the recoil and don't mind rebarreling every now and then, it is a good deal. It sounds like one hell of a long distance round.

luv2safari:

It was not my intent to denigrate the .375 Ruger or your choice of that caliber. I started my post by saying that "I think the .375 Ruger is a fine cartridge that makes up into a nice, inexpensive, portable rifle." However, there are reasons why I prefer the 9,3.

All things being equal, there are only three ways to mitigate recoil. First, add a brake. I just have lost to much hearing over the years to do that. Second, add weight to your rifle. AT LEAST FOR ME, here is where I think the .375 Ruger is a step in the wrong direction. As compared to Ruger's own .375 H&H, the .375 Ruger is probably two pounds lighter. That, coupled with the apparent increased velocity should generate a considerable increase in felt recoil. The third way to mitigate recoil is to shoot a smaller caliber and that's the choice that I HAVE MADE. I just really enjoy my my 9,3X62 and am in the process to looking into a double in 9,3X74R. I think the 9,3's will do everything the flanged and belted .375's will do at most practical hunting ranges. However, it is always good to have choices and by golly, if yours is the .375 Ruger, I say go for it! Heck, I'll even go to the gun store with you if you promise to let me shoot it!

Dave

Jim Manion, are you saying the 375R is going to erode barrels much faster that a 375HH ? With the same chamber pressure and 300 fps gain over the 375HH I'm not sure one could measure faster erosion in the 375R. I don't think any 375, HH or Ruger will ever be shot enough or fast enough to need a re-barrel.................JJ

All this from those who have not tried the 375 Ruger for themselves...It doesn't have credibility until you find out first hand.

I sure hope the shooting public isn't so quick to put the shooting industry out of business.

I, and most of those who have tried out the new kid on the block, like it. If you don't want one, or you don't like it for substantiated reasons, don't buy it. Give me one GOOD reason why we shouldn't have the 375 Ruger as a choice? I have very valid reasons to want one. I have much more trouble carrying a heavier rifle around all day due to health problems, and I can't afford to have a super-lite 375 H&H built. Enters the 375 Ruger, what the 376 Steyr only wants to be. Now that was DOA for good reasons. I will NEVER fault the 9,3X64 Brenneke, but go to Sportsman's Warehouse and buy a box of ammo for it...WHAT...couldn't find one?

It seems that the 375 Ruger is getting legs. If you prefer the 375 H&H, GDammit, get one. That isn't any reason to try killing the Ruger.

They make Fords and Chevys for reasons. They use marketing to sell their products, and so does the firearms industry. It doesn't mean what they're selling is bad...or good. So far, I've not read anything negative about this new round from those who have tried it, only from those who have not, and "never would".

I hope Ruger sells a zillion of them and thrives.

JJM

I am saying that the Ruger has to have a greater chamber pressure than the H&H. Same bullet, same load - where does it pick up an extra 300 fps?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
JJM

I am saying that the Ruger has to have a greater chamber pressure than the H&H. Same bullet, same load - where does it pick up an extra 300 fps?

Jim,
The .375 Ruger is about 10% bigger than PMP .375 H&H brass, but only about 4% bigger than WW-Super .375 H&H brass.

Both .375 H&H and .375 Ruger operate at around 62,000 psi.

There is no mystery to the .375 Ruger velocity being slightly greater than the .375 H&H.

Just watch out for the usual hype with a new cartridge. The advantage will be overstated as sales hype.

The advantage is real, but maybe not as much as some would have us believe.

.......I don,t feel there is anything wrong with a 270 gr .375 bullet @ 2700 fps muzzel velocity..................If the 375 ruger Alaskan will do that with a 20 " barrel and factory ammo,,,,its a winner in my opinion.....I would trust it the same as I do a 375 H&H.......However if it will give 2800fps w/ factory loads or safe handloads SO MUCH THE BETTER..........My 9.3x62 will do 2500 fps with a 270 gr moly coated bullet.......Thats great but I don,t have confidence in it ......Its ALOT better to have 50 , 100, 150 or 200 fps. than not...If you don,t think so just download your 404 s to 10.75x68 Mauser velocity and pick a fight with a couple elephants at 20 feet.,,with NO back up.......It is really silly to argue about a nice new cartridge,,,,,,,,,And a nice new attractive rifle.....

quote:

My 9.3x62 will do 2500 fps with a 270 gr moly coated bullet.......Thats great but I don,t have confidence in it .

OK. But why then are you looking for a 9.3 X 74 double rifle for your wife to use?

quote:

Its ALOT better to have 50 , 100, 150 or 200 fps. than not

Not always. I cannot put it any better than Kevin Robertson did in "Africa's Most Dangerous".

quote:

If you don,t think so just download your 404 s to 10.75x68 Mauser velocity and pick a fight with a couple elephants at 20 feet.,,with NO back up

If affordable .375 Ruger rifles along with ammo are available there is no reason to go with 9,3x62. Why would Jank waste time trying to find quality 9,3 ammo that will cost him an "arm and a leg"? It seems stupid to go to all that effort to get cartridge with lesser performance.
In US with 9,3x74 Hornady ammo and No 1 to be had the 9,3x62 has become a "bastard child".

thanks RIP for posting the only actual measured case capacity data here. Lab test data tells us that the added case capacity in grains will allow for 1/4th that added %-age in velocity gains. 3.5gr, =.9% MV increase at the same pressure. The velocity numbers touted here say 200+fps advantage. That would take about a 40% increase in case capacity or about 14% more pressure...swag there, but SAAMI is not forthcoming with the MAP data.

Rich
DRSS

Paolo,

don't be silly! Until they put a 5-shot magazine on the rugger #1 it won't run like my CZ 9,3x62.
9,3x62 performance is sufficient that all countries in Africa allow it for hunting ALL game! With good quality solids you can give me five elephants at 20 feet...
I will go out a titch on a limb and state that CZ 9,3x62's will outsell 385 ruggers about twenty to one this year.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
thanks RIP for posting the only actual measured case capacity data here. Lab test data tells us that the added case capacity in grains will allow for 1/4th that added %-age in velocity gains. 3.5gr, =.9% MV increase at the same pressure. The velocity numbers touted here say 200+fps advantage. That would take about a 40% increase in case capacity or about 14% more pressure...swag there, but SAAMI is not forthcoming with the MAP data.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,
Thank you, for getting it right!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

OK. But why then are you looking for a 9.3 X 74 double rifle for your wife to use?
...Because no one makes a 7.5 lb 450/400 single trigger double that is muzzle broke and reddily available and because it is bound to be ALOT better than her 308 bolt gun.,,,.,.......And she won,t be shooting 270 gr Speer bullets at bear with it....Probably a North Fork or Woodliegh or Swift or Trip.Sks.. ECT .....I used that weight in my example to show the difference ..........However I am still researching the 375 H&H doubles...But it needs to be light and little........Also she won,t be on purpose picking a fight with a bear when she is alone........

quote:

Its ALOT better to have 50 , 100, 150 or 200 fps. than not

Not always. I cannot put it any better than Kevin Robertson did in "Africa's Most Dangerous"................................If his line of reasoning is followed all the way out then all of Gerard,s actual field results are wrong .. However Gerard,s field results with the HV bullet ect are not wrong ..........Speed kills......As long as the bullets stay straight on course and don,t blow up

quote:

If you don,t think so just download your 404 s to 10.75x68 Mauser velocity and pick a fight with a couple elephants at 20 feet.,,with NO back up

............These 2 shoot the same diameter bullets , but the 10.75 won,t push a 400 gr bullet as fast as the 404 Jeffries....The 404 proved to be adequet most of the time , the 10.75 did not ... Thats why there arn,t many 10.75x68,s being built these days for dangerous game hunting............

.....

Interesting to read what Boddington says about it in Rifleman Mag.

He likes it, but warns not to shoot it over the bench more than necessary due to what he calls the "considerable" recoil.

I would not hesitate to buy one if I needed it. But my 9.3 is good enough for me - less muzzle blast, recoil (I suspect) and does what I need.

What I do like is the open sights that Ruger has put on their rifle. For once someone seems to have a decent set of open sights on a reasonably priced rifle.

Dave Bush,

I already have two of the 375 Hawkeyes...one for me, and one for my elk hunting partner. I do like them, so far, and I can't see why they are getting bum-rapped by some who can't accept anything not made before WWII. HECk all to HECK...I LOVE my 9,3s.

I do need something in a larger bore that reaches out to 300 yards well, and have been using the heavier rifle 375 Wby. That old FN action is slick, and it drives tacks. BUT, it weighs 2+ pounds more than the Hawkeye, and the old Mdl 70 even more. I'm too damned old to be carrying those old things around the mountains. We hunt hard in rough terrain, and a pound or two makes a big difference.

I got this dog, because I know it will hunt. I sure hope it has pups soon.

...and you are MOST welcome to shoot anything I have that you might wish. Do you get to the Reno area?

luv2-

If you need to reach out and touch something at 300 yards in a lighter weight rifle, in my view that is where the 375 Ruger will shine. That is where added velocity makes the most sense.

If I were expecting a fairly steady diet of elk opportunities at 200 plus yards, I'd have to consider giving the Ruger a whirl.

It only takes so much velocity to take dangerous game at most typical shooting distances. And unless I am wrong and animals in fact have developed thicker hides and stronger bones over the last 100 years, what was good then is still good now.

Too much velocity at less than 100 yards can get you a twofer, or a threefer - through the animal you are shooting at and into the next one, or two. Trophy fees and fines being what they are these days, that is something to consider.

And Gumboot, if I can ever figure out what the heck you just said, I'll respond.

Jim, I also chuckled a bit at gumboot's post!

On the double rifle thread he was looking for a 9,3 double for his wife to carry for bear defense. However, over here, he says he doesn't have any confidence in it!

Gumboot, sending Mrs. Gumboot out on the beach to be eaten by bears, well, that's just mean! Let me know if it works.

Dave

Dave,

Maybe that's an "Alaskan divorce"....

The 375 H&H and the 375 Ruger have exactly the same long range capability because both can be loaded to the same velocity.

Anyone wanting a flatter trajectory needs to step up to a 375 Weatherby or a 378 Weatherby.

Who was it that said, "Never hunt with a cartridge younger than you."
It is on someones tag line, I just can't remember who.
Brian

Mickey or he might be Mickey1 on AR

Rob,
actually it does have some value, I think it will make up into a very nice 9,3mm cartridge if brass is ever available at a reasonable price.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
The 375 H&H and the 375 Ruger have exactly the same long range capability because both can be loaded to the same velocity.

Anyone wanting a flatter trajectory needs to step up to a 375 Weatherby or a 378 Weatherby.

Maybe the .378 Weatherby........and then for those with the balls to shoot it!!!

Speaking of the 378 Wby, I had 2 friends that had them. One was Magna-Ported, it was still pretty thumpy.

The other was fitted with a KDF Muzzle break, by KDF, we drove down there and had it done.

You could shoot it prone with a Harris bipod like a 308 sniper rifle.
KDF made a BIG difference in recoil.

I think if I was building the ultimate BIG game long range hunting rig I would pick one of the "super" 338's.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
thanks RIP for posting the only actual measured case capacity data here. Lab test data tells us that the added case capacity in grains will allow for 1/4th that added %-age in velocity gains. 3.5gr, =.9% MV increase at the same pressure. The velocity numbers touted here say 200+fps advantage. That would take about a 40% increase in case capacity or about 14% more pressure...swag there, but SAAMI is not forthcoming with the MAP data.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,
Thank you, for getting it right!

Thats about the most truthful thing said about the 375ruger so far.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
The 375 H&H and the 375 Ruger have exactly the same long range capability because both can be loaded to the same velocity.

Anyone wanting a flatter trajectory needs to step up to a 375 Weatherby or a 378 Weatherby.

They are so close, it makes little difference for sure. I just like the Hawkeye rifle a helluva lot and need something a bit lighter that does what the 375 H&H does. Not being able to afford a custom 375 H&H lightweight, I opted for the Ruger. Its great to carry and to shoot,,,EXCEPT FOR THEIR STINKING PUNNY PAD!!!

Thats about the most truthful thing said about the 375ruger so far.[/QUOTE]

WRONG! The most truthful thing said about the 375 Hawkeye is that those who have not tried one out or own one don't know SQUAT ABOUT THEM.

The next truthful thing said here is that those who have them like them. Most other said is armchair conjecture, except for the actual measured data listed here.

One thing's for sure, it gave us a new horse to ride or flog, depending on one's proclivity.

quote:

Originally posted by luv2safari:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
The 375 H&H and the 375 Ruger have exactly the same long range capability because both can be loaded to the same velocity.

Anyone wanting a flatter trajectory needs to step up to a 375 Weatherby or a 378 Weatherby.

They are so close, it makes little difference for sure. I just like the Hawkeye rifle a helluva lot and need something a bit lighter that does what the 375 H&H does. Not being able to afford a custom 375 H&H lightweight, I opted for the Ruger. Its great to carry and to shoot,,,EXCEPT FOR THEIR STINKING PUNNY PAD!!!

luv2safari,

There's been a bunch of comparison talk that has little value in reality. A couple of observations I'd like to make on the theory mess and on reality:

In theory, using accurate total volume data for direct cartridge comparisons should be limited to cartridges operating at somewhat similar pressure. The 375R and 375H&H qualify and this part is good, but, it is incorrect to make this comparison on the basis of the entire volume of the cartridge case. The correct volume to use is the volume remaining after the bullet is seated. This is readily proven and long ago published in works done by Vihta Vuori and Sierra.

In reality, I'll touch on empirical evidence of what they have done, and on does this really matter:

On what they have done:

Even w/ R-15 you'd be hard pressed to get a 270gr bullet out of a 23" barrel over 2700fps in a 375H&H. I don't think I'd go much over 73gr and you'd be maxed out around 74-76gr. Using H4350 you'd top out around 83gr. Either way, you'll need at least a 24" barrel or would need to drop down to a 260gr bullet. There is tons of published data available on this and most who break 2700fps are beyond max pressure and/or have longer barrels.

Jeff Quinn has already tested and published data using a factory 23" 375 Ruger barrel. Without any signs of excessive pressure he clocked the following:
- factory loaded Hornady 270SP = 2758fps
- hand loaded Hornady 270SP = 2875fps
- hand loaded Barnes 270XLC = 2975fps
- hand loaded Barnes 270TSX = 2856fps
- hand loaded Barnes 300TSX = 2757fps

End results are that it has been proven the 375Ruger can be handloded w/out excessive pressure and shoot a 300gr Barnes TSX faster than a 375H&H can shoot a 270gr bullet. There is no same velocity here and it's not close. Based on what I've seen, you cannot load a 375H&H and shoot the same top velocity as you can w/ the Ruger.

On does this realy matter:

NO, IT DOES NOT REALLY MATTER!

A 375cal 270gr Barnes TSX or other good bullet shot out of a barrel at standard H&H velocities can flat out knock about anything down. That is a proven reallity. It doesn't matter if it's launch by an H&H or a Ruger.

GVA

I think too many Americans that hunt Africa are under some kind of a mind set that it takes a 600 NE to kill dangerous game. It takes proper bullet placement with a decent round and a proper bullet for the caliber.

I don't know why anyone that can shoot would feel undergunned on any dangerous game with these two fine cartridges, I believe the 9.3x62 and the 375, either H&H or Ruger is a suitable elephant rifle and certainly both are supurb buffalo calibers. I have not used the 9.3x62 on elephant but have seen the 9.3x62 and the 9.3x74 used on several ocassions and it performed very well IMO. I have also seen the .308 used on elephant more than any other cartridge, mostly in FAL autos. I don't think it makes much difference what size hole you put in the brain, penetration is the only equation to hunting elephant IMO.

GaryVA,
You are hung up on this gross-water-capacity-of-fired-cases-comparison thing aren't you?

It is indeed valid when you are seating the same bullets in the same two cases being compared.

And you have to know the gross before you can get the net.

The most useful of all case capacity information is indeed the gross water capacity of a fire-formed case.

That is the starting point for any real discussion, comparison, or calculation.

Yes when you get down to calculating, you need the net.

Since the .375 H&H and the .375 Ruger are using the same bullets, but the Ruger has a slightly shorter neck and sharper shoulder than the H&H, there is a slight advantage in the net case capacity going to the Ruger, even more so than its gross advantage over the H&H, in any make brass I have weighed.

However this net versus gross discrepancy in comparison will be miniscule, except in some wildly extreme cases of very different caliber-neck-shoulder dimensions, which is not the case in comparing the .375 H&H to the .375 Ruger.

Gross water capacity of fired cases is still a good general starting point. Even there the brass from different makers or even different lots from the same maker has a significant effect on the comparison, and must be recognized.

Mr. Atkinson,

I second and third those who are delighted to see you posting!

IMHO, which is just that....

the 375 Ruger will end up running right along side the H&H, unless they run it over 70,000Psi. That is how hot it will have to be loaded to generate the velocity numbers they are claiming. Buy stock in a barrel company if you do that.

The 375R will be a really neat hammer in a std length action, and those outnumber the 375H&H length ones about a million to one, just talking Mausers. 3/8ths inch shorter bolt throw means squat...but cheaper actions and greater choices means a lot.

Rich
DRSS

Whilst I ain't seen a Hawkeye, it will take a while before one makes it down to this part of the world, on paper the diff between a 9.3x64 and the Ruger aint more than a pile of blow fly poo.
Giving correct bullet placement, the terminal effect will depend on the quality of the bullets used.
Whilst Ruger/Hornady could rightly be accused of reinventing the wheel it's one hell of a wheel they have recrafted.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

An honest ad for the 375 Ru might say "Duplicates 375 H&H ballistics in a standard Ruger action.

The 375 H&H and the 375 Ruger have exactly the same long range capability because both can be loaded to the same velocity.

Anyone wanting a flatter trajectory needs to step up to a 375 Weatherby or a 378 Weatherby.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

The 375R will be a really neat hammer in a std length action, and those outnumber the 375H&H length ones about a million to one, just talking Mausers. 3/8ths inch shorter bolt throw means squat...but cheaper actions and greater choices means a lot.

Rich
DRSS

I think the above quotes just about sums it all up. Everything beyond that is just superfluous, and for those who must have a 9.3, the x64 is in the same catagory. Although not quite as powerful, the 9.3x62 has proven itself adequately too.

KB

In my Opinion, all these new cartridges and rifles are there to satisfy "I got something Better" IMHO in their mind only. Several years ago when everything was hunky dorey, the bullet manufacturers came out with their PREMIUM Grade of bullets to put a little more "HOREPOWER" in the old reliable smoke poles. But as you have seen it didn't help the rifle manufacturers sell any more guns since just about any quality made gun would last several lifetimes with average maintenance. So they did what they have to do to survive...simple....classify alll early cartidges as underpowered or long range impeded and come out with the new do it all superdooper magnum that weighs less shoots MOA at 5000 yards and kick 50% less than it predessors and you will be the first one in the field to hunt it. You gotta feel sorry for the sports shop when theyhave to stock the ammo, how many designations are out there?
My question why hasn't this spilled over into the muzzleloaders????? still the same old 36, 45, 50 54 and 58 calibers surely they can improve on these ancient relics maybe a 52.75552 caliber.....what do you think am I onto something

We could argue over the 270 and 30-06 or 30-06 and .308, it would have about the same worth as this thread, but if this thread comes to a viable conclusion then I will know which caliber to keep as I have both, but hey I also have a .270, 30-06 and a .308. I have know for years that they are all about the same as is the 9.3s and the .375. Come to think of it I could probably hunt the entire world with my 06.

Reality really screws up a good thread.

The '06 is King!

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
The '06 is King!

JW

HERE HERE!!

I'm starting to think that some of these discussions about cartridges have more to do with politics than how the cartridges perform in the field. Just last month many were touting the '06 as a "National Mistake". Now, the '06 is back up in the polls and is the champ!

GVA

I have nothing usefull to ad to this tread.

But welcome back Ray!!!




Johan