What are dimensional differences between the
two cartridges above?They`re both based on .404
brass and look very similar,but I`d like to know
in what they differ.
Posting all their dimensions would be appreciated.

I asssume the .450 VS is designed to work in
30-06 lenght actions as is the Howell.Since "Vinc"
appeared later,can it be considered kind of
.450 Howell Improved?
Reading A-R reloading pages revealed that listed
loads for the .450 VS were actually more powerful
than those for the .458 Lott and almost matched
the top .450 Ackley loads in power.
Correct me if I`m wrong but getting 2398fps with
a 500 grainer from a "short" magnum,calls for a
HOT,VERY HOT load,right?And you wouldn`t recommend
such a load for african DG(heat and pressure)
would you?
Can you tell me some loads for the subject
cartridges that take 400-450 grain bullets?
Especially Barnes or Woodleigh.The loads here are
with 500gr Hornady FMJ only.

Regards

Since I don't have my copy of Cartridges of the World, I couldn't tell you what the dimensional differences are but you could go out and get a copy at your major book store. You are right about the 450 Vincent short being a high pressure loading to get the velocities listed. Go the Reloading page when you access this site instead of going to the Forum page. Almost of Saeed's loads are over the top and it should be only for reference. When Jack Lott made the 450 G&A(450VincentShort), his intention was to convert a 458 Win to get an honest 2150 -2250 f/s with 500 grain bullets. The Vincent is a direct of the Lott.

"The Vincent s a direct of the Lott."
??
Direct what, I'm not sure, but it's made on the Jeffery case, not the H&H.
Here's the Howell:
Rim and base are nominal .541" - .544" depending on brass (Jeffery specs; you can look them up.)
Shoudler at 2.0" and .515" wide.
25 deg shoulder, .4591" neck.
Case length 2.5".

Don't know the Vincent, but if it were me, I'd have the shoulder at 2.13" and .530", 35 deg, and .445" neck, case length 2.610" for about 3-4 grains more powder (~5% increase.)

Thing I still don't understand is, why are people not using long actions?
Unless someone just gives you one, or you're set on pre-'64 M70's or K98's, 3.6" actions are everywhere.

OOPS! There I go again, it should have read "The Vincent is a direct copy of the Lott."

While I'm at it, there were two Lott Wildcats made up in the '70's or '80's. One was the 460 G&A in a full length long action and the 450 Lott in standard length action. The shorter wildcat was primarily to clean up a 458 Win chamber with a reamer for those who had 458's and were disappointed with the compressed loads from the factory. They were both on 404 brass.

Actually I`m a proud owner of three COTW books:
6th,7th and 8th Edition.
There is dimensional data for the .450 Howell in
the 8th Edition,but no loading data.
No mention about the two Vincent cartridges,but
the 8th Edition is dated 1997,perhaps too early
for them.
I`m not trying to be "smart ass expert" but.....
Bwana-be,are you sure about these neck diameters?
.4591" with .458" bullet seated would result in
neck wall thickness .00055"
I`d hesitate to call this "thickness"How about
"blotting-paper thin"
.445" neck and .458" bullet ?????????
Howell neck is .480"(from COTW)

"why are people not using long actions?"
Hmmmm,there are many shooters who believe that
working bolt of a 3,4" action is SOOOOO MUCH
faster than doing it with a 3,6 action,that they
can save plenty of time for themselves.

No,I`m not in their camp.I like magnums in all
three popular lenghts:
3,34"
3,6"
3,75"
Especially beltless.

The .458 Lott is built on the .375 H&H necked up and blown out.

The .460 G&A is built on the .404 Jeffery.

I could not find any dimentions for the .450 Vincent short or .450 long,but I did find a picture of both beside a .404 Jeffery case.I measured the picture of the .404 J then scaled it to the dimentions listed in COTW.I then scaled the Vincent cases.The
short case is 2.5 + or -,the long case is 2.75 + or -.The Vincent cases appear to have less taper
than the Howell and a steeper shoulder.

The Vincent cartridges are attributed to Roy
Vincent.

WC

"Not diameters.Lengths."

All clear now.

Thanks for the replies.

I'm off to see Roy Vincent in 3 weeks or so. Is there anything anyone would like me to ask him?

Mic a case for us.
What do you mean, you don't bring your mic to Africa?!
How do you accurately measure the tusks?!

Sure! Please ask him how much influence his 404 wildcats had from the Lott 404 based wildcats. Wildcatters have used existing designs to base their wildcats on and name it after themselves time after time. COTW use to list more cartridges but has pared it down quite a bit. Just look at the wildcats in same caliber and they are so similar that most could be brothers.

I have got an idea. Post your questions here and I'll print them and give them to Roy first hand, he has a mic there not to worrie.

While I cannot find an old article to confirm it, my memory is that Jeff Cooper's Baby was in .450 G&A on a BRNO action and he has always been very pleased with it.

After reading the posts about the advantages of the .404 Jeff on a standard mauser action, I have decided to build an African big bore rifle with all the bells and whistles. However I have a nice .416 Taylor and wonder if a .45 bore should be in my future. On paper the .450 G&A idea looks very good... anyone have any experience with it?

Hmm...
My humble request would be:
-Loads for the .450 VS that take 400/450/480 grain
bullets-Especially Barnes and Woodleigh.
-As above ,but for the .450 VL
-Pressures these loads generate.
-I second Bwana-be`s request to mic a case.
Better yet,please mic them both,the short and the
long one too.

TIA

[ 08-30-2003, 19:13: Message edited by: DARTH 44 ]

Jeff Cooper's Baby is a 460 G&A. I made a mistake in the previous post and put down 450 Lott where it should be 458 G&A. At least I think that's what it should be. I have my COTW issues stored away and have to rely on my faulty memory.