I was have heard through the grapevine that the 405 Win can be loaded up to 2450 fps safely with a 300 gr FP solid. If this is true would this make a 405 Win suitable for dangerous game? Seems like a far better solution than a 450 Marlin or overloaded 45-70.

I am trying to get the actual load data. Don't know right now if this solid is cast or copper, either. I hope to find all this out soon. If anyone is interested I will post what I find out. However, use it at your own risk.

Kent

All of the data and articles on the .405 that I've seen the last couple of years (all written for the '95 action) pretty much punk out at about 2200-2300fps. In a Ruger #1 you might stretch things, but not a '95. Dave Scovill of Handloader magazine has done a good bit with the .405, even before Hornady and Winchester made it cool again. Check some back issues.

I got more information about this last night from a friend of mine. From what I have been told, the rifle is one of the NEW Winchester M1895s. It was rebarreled to 405 Win, it was originally a 30-06. The guy is loading somekinda custom 300gr and 350gr copper solids in it. The chronographed muzzle velocity of the 300gr pill is right at 2450 fps, while the 350gr is around 2300 fps. Pressure signs are said to be non-existent. My friend is going to look into this a little more and try and get more on the particulars of the load and rifle. He is a big lever action fan.

Kent

I've been working with a stainless No. 1 in .405 for the past month and can easily hit 2,300 fps with a 300 grain Hornady......I agree that in a strong gun, the cartridge is more than capable of 2,400 plus fps.

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

I've got a Win 1895 in 411 Hawk that will do better than 2300 with 325 grain X bullets or 350 grain Swift A Frames.

[ 10-18-2003, 03:53: Message edited by: Yukon Jack ]

Supposedly this guys is getting these velocities with both IMR4895 and Rel7. I have the actual loads if anyone is interested, but you will use them at your own risk!

Kent

I would be hesitant to shoot a 405 at 2450 FPS,in any lever action rifle, but don't mind someone else doing so...I will happily load mine at 2250 Max should I ever own one....

A 300 gr. tough bullet at 2250 FPS would be more effective on Dangerous game than the same bullet at 2450 because those bullets are not designed for 2450 FPS....

300 gr. bullets in a .405 do not have the sectional density for such game as African Cape Buffalo or Elephant..Perhaps for Grizzley, Leopard and perhaps, I say perhaps Lion, but at any rate the .405 would never under any circumstances be my choice of a DGR....To many better choices out there...As I recall a .405 got Bwana Cottar kilt....

What is the difference between the 411 Hawk and a 405 Winchester? Here is the Hawk data, I copied from their website.

'TEST LOADS FOR .411 HAWK
Data collected with neck sized brass. Bauska, 26" Barrel (unlapped)

TEST LOADS FOR .411 HAWK H4895 300 gr. Hawk RN, H4895, CCI 200 primer.

Fire Forming Loads
58 gr. Average fps 2341 Standard Deviation 37.00
59 gr. Average fps 2373 Standard Deviation 38.27
60 gr. Average fps 2463 Standard Deviation 22.73
60.5 gr. Average fps 2409 Standard Deviation 19.97
61 gr. Average fps 2420 Standard Deviation 15.36
61.5 gr. Average fps 2458 Standard Deviation 19.97
62 gr. Average fps 2478 Standard Deviation 11.78

"What makes the .411 Hawk so appealing to me is it's efficiency. From the '06 case it can drive a 300 grain bullet as fast as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum!"

Wayne van Zwoll, Deer & Big Game Rifles 2003

Neck sized, second firing. 62 gr. Average fps 2505 Standard Deviation 24.20
62.5 gr. Average fps 2491 Standard Deviation 16.49
63 gr. Average fps 2516 Standard Deviation 10.53
63.5 gr. Average fps 2530 Standard Deviation 11.91
64 gr. Average fps 2553 Standard Deviation 13.60

300 gr. Hawk RN, BLC-2, CCI 200 primer. Too Slow 59 gr. Average fps 2104 Standard Deviation 25.94
60 gr. Average fps 2244 Standard Deviation 48.68

Good increase in velocity, will test more.'

Seems to me that the 405 Winchester is about the same as this thing. Why bother getting a hawk?

Ray, what is your concern with the 2450 fps? The M1895 is chambered in plenty of 60,000 psi + cartridges. I assume these guys are loading the 405 Win and the 411 Hawk to something around 60,000 psi.

Recono, the 300 gr bullet of the 405 Win has the same section density as a 170 gr 30 caliber bullet, or the 174gr bullet of the 303 Brit. I know that the 303 Brit has a stunning reputation for penetration. Muzzle velocity of 2460 fps, section density of .256. Same as these guys are claiming for their 405 Win and 411 Hawk, but maybe with even better velocity.

Kent

[ 10-23-2003, 19:50: Message edited by: Kent in IA ]

Kent,
There's a couple of reasons I went with the Hawk. First and foremost, this project was underway before I heard rumor that Winchester was reintroducing the 405. Second, because of the case size difference, the Hawk version will handle the heavier bullets better than the Winchester version. The 350's and 400 grain .411 take up too much space in the Winchester case.

I doubt any animal anywhere would notice the difference between the two if shot with the 300 grain loadings. But I suspect there would be a difference with the heavier bullets. My rifle was put together based on the idea of shooting premium bullets of 350 grains or more. Swift is making another run of their 350 grain A Frames and I'm loading the 400 grain Woodleigh's right now.

Also, yes, the 411 Hawk fireforming loads are very close to 60,000 psi in pressure. I think I'll reduce my loadings a little as far as the pressure is concerned. While the Winchester 1895 may handle it okay, I'm just not comfortable with that kind of pressure in a rear locking pushfeed rifle. If you have a case failure at those pressures, its asking an awful lot of the rifle to take it without disaster.

Another factor with the .405 Winchester case compared to the .411 Hawk is bolt thrust. Running both at the same pressure is going to result in more thrust from the bigger case on the bolt. It isn't just the pressure developed that can break things.

Anybody run an analysis on this yet?

jim dodd

Yukon Jack, how much bigger is the 411 Hawk than the 405 Win? I was under the impression that case capacities were almost identical. The Hawk being somewhat fatter and the Winchester being longer. I can see where the shorter case would help with longer bullets from the perspective of overall length.

HunterJim, which thrusts harder? The Hawk or the Winchester? I figured it was pretty much six of one, half dozen of the other.

Kent

Using the dimensions from the 411 Hawk website, the case capacity difference between the 405 Winchester and the 411 Hawk, is only about 2 grains. Not at all significant, really. By the way, that is after taking into account that the bullet seating depth is less with the 411 Hawk.

Those H4895 loads they list on their website range from pretty compressed to very compressed, too! I find it difficult to believe they would be very accurate with the degree of powder compression they are achieving!

So Kent tell us, are you looking for a real rifle to replace your 50 Beowulf assault rifle? Going to get one of these 405 Win rifles and rack up your second big game kill at the local game ranch?

Kent,
You may very well be right. There may not be much difference in the capacity of the two. I don't have a 405 so I don't know. If you can get 61 grains of IMR 4064 or 59 grains of H322 under a 350 Barnes X grain bullet and still be able to put in the magazine of a Winchester 1895, then it will duplicate the Hawk. That is all I can do with my rifle.

Also, there's been a bunch of folks saying the 405 is a real kicker. My rifle in the Hawk is not bad at all. The 405 should be similar. I'm not a big guy, about 5'10" and 160 lbs. I'm sure it would hurt if it did not have the shotgun style stock though. The original 1895's had a crescent butt that was fairly narrow and I'm sure were fairly punishing.

One other thing about those pressures. Those were determined in a controlled test environment. I'm sure done to standardized temp and ambient barometric pressure. If you take that 60,000 psi load at 60 degrees and shoot it when its 110 degrees, there may be enough increase in pressure to harm you or your rifle. My rifle is for Alaska, not for Africa. If I was looking for a stopping gun for Africa, it would be chambered in something that had much lower pressures for that type of performance.

Kent;
Sounds like your asking for trouble.You can't make a 405 into a 416.Be careful,listen to RAY.

Cole, not at all. Just curious about what you can get out of this old round in modern brass with a modern rifle. Besides that I have heard that it is possible to come very close to duplicating the old british 40 caliber NE ballistics. Can you really get around 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet in either the 405 Win or the 411 Hawk?

Kent

It IS possible to get ~ 2100 fps with a 400gr bullet out of a 405 Winchester or the 411 Hawk. You will need to cut a new cannelure though! You will also be operating between 57000 and 60000 psi. For the record that is the load pressure limits of the 30-06 as well.

So there you go Kenteosso, a DG lever action specially for you. Game ranch buffalos better run for their lives.