Any experience with this combo?

Hello Daryl;
45/70 Guide Gun sounds great but if you hunt and/or Guide where you hail from you may want to carry something with a bit more stopping power then this Deer slayer, just my thoughts, take care Carl.

I've just recently got one and have shot it a few times. It's a nice shooter and fairly accurate out of the box.

I bought it mostly for a truck-gun, not to hunt with. Although in tight country it would probably work well on Arizona Mule deer and whitey's.

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daryl Elder:
Hi Daryl,
I've got the non guide gun Marlin in 45/70 and it's a very accurate fast handling gun. It handloads to 1850 fps with a Remington 405 grain bullet. Mine is set up with an Ashley rear peep and the standard front site. It's very light to pack and has lots of power up to 100 yards. I don't think you will get the same velocity out of the guide gun bacause of the porting and the noise level will be up. 470 Mbogo

470 Mbogo, where did you get your Ashley sight? Did you get both front and back? Handloading a 400gr to 1800fps sounds like a hammer! If I need a bigger hammer I can always use my 9.3x64, but that SS Guide Gun looked so mean, I had to have it! Short, quick... Oh, Mama!

I reently got the Guide Gun, and with minimal load development, it's proved to be amazingly accurate. I've got a scope on mine right now because I couldn't get one of Ashley's tritium front sights. I want to use it back under some tall pine canopies where it gets awfully dark awfully fast. Those sights must be popular because it's been back ordered over a month now! When it comes in, I'm guessing this spring (???), I'm going to remove the scope and just get a steel Lyman 66 receiver sight. The unscoped gun just handles better.

It's a very neat gun. With only minimal burr removal and light internal polishing, it really slicked up. Even the trigger is good, but light stoning/deburring made it pretty sweet for this type of gun.

Clyde Ludwig makes a replacement piece for the crossbolt safety, and I installed one in mine. I do NOT want to have the hammer drop on the safety and go "click" when it ought to go "boom!" If people used it safely for 100 years before the crossbolt safety, then I probably ought to be able to do the same!

I also like the way you can cock that hammer VERY silently.

I'm only loading 400 gr. bullets to @ 1650 fps., and even at that, the small butts they put on these rifles lets the gun take a decent whack at you. Nothing beyond any decent shooter's level of comfort, but it is NOT like a .30/30. Loaded to the hilt, I'm sure it would whack the shooter AND the quarry darned smartly, so if I was going to shoot many heavy loads, I'd get a new stock for it that had a slightly higher comb (I like fairly strong cheek contact) and a broader and deeper butt, so it would spread the recoil over a larger area. This plus a good recoil pad ought to make it more pleasant to shoot longer strings with off a bench.

The shorter, ported barrel of the GG is NOT nearly as significant as most people would think because of the .45/70's favorable expansion ratio, and the fact that it's best loaded with faster burning powders, like the 4198's and RE-7. I also think that something in the way Marlin cuts the chambers and throats makes these guns produce close to the same velocity as the 22" barreled 1895 SS's.
At any rate, any velocity given up by the shorter barrel will be insignificant in the field with this old warhorse caliber. This gun and my old prewar M-64 Win. have really made me appreciate the leverguns! Both are accurate, quick, easy handling and very "huntable" guns that give the outdoor experience a new and very nice flavor. Of course, that makes me a bit prejudiced, so you'll also have to take that into account.
FWIW, I like either the shorter GG or the longer CB versions, but there's not a thing wrong with the plain 1895SS, either. The GG may not have as much weight out front as some would prefer, but as Mercutio said, "'Tis enough. 'Twill do." At least for me it is, anyway. Maybe the best solution is one of each? ;^)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackwater:
Daryl,
I got my Ashley directly from Ashley. You can order on line from www.ashleyoutdoors.com. If your eyes are starting to let you down a bit order the larger size peep apature.
Blackwater,
This may sound a little odd coming from me but put a Pachmayer triple X magnum model F990 recoil pad on you guide gun and go shoot it. It will take a small and you won't have to do any of the other stock work etc that you mentioned. 470 Mbogo

Hey guys,

I bought a 1895SS .45/70 last year. With stout handloads I think it is the ultimate saddle/camp gun for bear protection.

I get 1850fps with 47gr of RL 7 and Fed 210 primers under a 400gr Speer. 48grains and a magnum primer gets me right up to 2000fps but stretches the brass a little much for my liking.

I am not sure how much difference the shorter ported barrel will make on velocity, but according to one poster here, it was less than 100fps in his tests.

For non-reloaders I think the .450 Marlin is a pretty darn good choice. I just picked one up to send to a friend that works out of camps and seldom makes it in town to shop for hunting stuff. I am itchin to try it out next to my .45/70. Just waitin for some decent weather!

I also got the Ashley Peep and I like it alot. I ordered from the link .470Mbogo posted and they were really helpful and fast. Its definately worth the price.

One thing I noticed about the guide gun is that it comes with a pretty decent looking recoil pad (at least the .450 Marlin version does).

Recoil of my .45/70 with the handloads above is comparable to my .375 H&H with 300grain bullets. Stout but not uncomfortable. It is also a reassuring feeling when you are packing it for protection!

Canuck

Daryl, I have a 1895ss and love it, you have made a fine choice in gun and calibre. Try the woodleigh 405 grain flat points and see what you reckon, they hang together real well and retaining plenty of weight. The seirra 300 grain hp's are really good for the soft ferals, they open up real fast. I'm getting b/w 1850-1950 with the 405 grain woodleighs and 2150 aprox with the 300 grain sierras. Accuracy has seemed to be a little better with the 405's. But I use mine for pigs in lignum and have tasco propoint on it and the ranges I'm shooting the difference is not a concern. All I know is that when game is hit it goes down hard.

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PC, what powder/grs. are you using with the 405gr Woodleigh? Sounds awesome!

They are neat guns, my buddy has a Wild West Co-pilot, and its a pussy cat to shoot. I keep debating getting a guide gun, but don't like the ports. And since I can't keep well enough alone, I'm strongly considering getting one but re-barreling it to a 475, the 45-70 blown straight. This is primarily driven by the fact I have a 460 gr WFN gc mold that would be the nee plus ultra close in bullet when launched 1800 fps. I'd really like a 50 Alaskan, but it's a whole lot more involved of a conversion, though I also have a 450 gr LFN gc mold that would be fine. I'm thinking ss, 17", no ports, and one of the big lever loops for use with gloves.

have the Marlin 45/70 CB,,love it to no end,,
and with 60grs of RL-7 and 300 grain Sierra
HP`s,,,it`s smokin,,,,,,,,,,

Daryl, I have loaded with an Aussie powder AR2207 I think you will find that Hodgens powders are in some cases interchangeable with the AR range of Australian powders (don't quote me on that one). I have worked up to 48 grains of AR 2207 for around 1900 fps, these loads were just on the verge of showing pressure signs, so I backed of one grain and as a result don't have any sign of excessive pressure. I think that the 405 woodlieghs which have been made specifically for 45/70 .450 marlins would be an excellent round for hunting larger game. I think that the woodleigh is a better projectile than the speer 400's. I recovered one that had been fired into a red gum tree (Quite hard wood) and it pentrated about 10 inches and still weighed 385 grains. The bullet had mushroomed perfectly. I do not think that there is much that this load would not stop within it's range capabilities. E-mail me if you want any other help Daryl

Regards PC

quote:

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Originally posted by Daryl Elder:
PC, what powder/grs. are you using with the 405gr Woodleigh? Sounds awesome!

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i have a 45-70gg also, i am shooting 60grs of r7 with a 3oogr nosler at 2325fps and 56grs of r7 with a 350gr hornaday at 2175fps.however i have plugged the ports because i think there much to loud. i do not think you should shoot the 350gr load in the cowboy because the barrel is thinner around the chamber.

dickens- How did you plug the ports on you Guide Gun?

bearguide i get ask that alot lately i tapped the holes with a 6-48 tap they are already the right size 31, and plugged flush with barrel then made a sleeve to fit over the the barrel with a cut for the sight. they will blow out if you do not put a sleeve over them.if you e-mail me your e-mail address i will send you some pic.

Dickens that sounds like a great idea, I have an 1894P in .44 mag with the 16 1/4 inch ported barrel and it really should not be shot without earmuffs. To be honest it is near the loudest rifle I own and it burns under 30 grains of powder. I reckon my rigby is more comfortable noise wise to shoot without ear protection than my .44 mag. I would not mind picyures of that either.

Regards PC

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Plugging the ports is a pretty good idea. I just shot 18 rounds through a Guide Gun yesterday. The ports didn't really seem to help much, and I did notice one very dangerous thing about them. When my brother was shooting the gun, and I was spotting from the next bench (ie. beside him, behind the muzzle), I got peppered by ??? (partly burnt powder?). Twice this stuff embedded in my skin near my eye. Felt like I was getting shot by a BB gun. Not fun! Darn good thing I had eye protection. Is this normal for a muzzle brake (I don't have any)?

Canuck

pc i am sending you the pic,s let me know if you get them i would post them here but i am not sure how.

Dickens, have not got those pictures yet.

Regards PC

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pc i sent them 12-11 pm i will try again today let me know

pc if you don,t get these send me a e-mail and i will reply with pic

Dickens, I got them thanks heaps mate, I sent you a e-mail as well confirming that I got them, I'm impressed. I reckon marlin should keep the short barrels and drop the porting, i'ts pointless I would rather recoil than ear shattering noise.

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Anybody just lopped there guide gun down to 17" to be rid of the ports? I figure velocity loss will be nil, and the gun becomes even more compact. I keep thinking about just getting a factory guide gun and doing said mod, but am more intriqued with a 475 or 50 caliber gg.

I'd love to do that, but it would make the gun illegal in Canada. Minimum 18 1/2" bbl.

Bearguide I thought it was illegal to to have a barrel in Australia shorter than 18 1/2 inches however I legally bought and own a marlin 1894P .44 mag which has a 16 1/4 inch barrel.

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Bearguide, are you positive about that? I recently purchased a Mossberg 590 with a 14" bbl./ghostring sights etc. Just recieved my registration in the mail for it. I thought that as long as the arm was manufactured in that length it was OK?

Well, you guys had me thinking since I also saw a shotgun and semi-auto 22 in a gun store catalog with short bbls. So I checked the web site of our lovely Canadian Firearms Center and found that a gun with a bbl. length less than 470mm would be considered a restricted weapon. If you alter the length from original manufacture, it becomes prohibited. At least this is what I can ascertain from their gibberish. Have a look:
www.cfc.gc.ca/cfm/ENGLISH/POHAND/02WEAPON/0200000F.HTM

Now that I re-read it, it seems to apply only to semi-auto centerfire. Have to check into it further.

[This message has been edited by bearguide (edited 12-14-2001).]

Bearguide, checked my registration again to be sure and it states in the class as "Non-restricted" and barrel length as "less than 470mm". If it's a typo, then they have royaly screwed up as we have 8 more coming into the store. My wife's FAC instructor has a Win Defender w/ 12" bbl. It's legit because it was manufactured that length. If I put the pistol grip on my 14" Mossberg it becomes prohibited. One thing that was said about these beauties is that problems getting them weren't the fault of the Can gov. but the American gov. Apparently the Canajuns didn't want to be the bad guys so they simply asked the U.S. to not export them. Tricky, huh? Don't have to pass any legislation in your own country, just ask the manufacturer's government

Daryl- Yeah, you're right. Minimum length of 18 1/2" only applies to semi-auto centerfire. There must be some similar law in the US as well, otherwise why are so many guns made to 18 1/2" specs, like the Mini-14, Guide Guns and several shotgun bbl's.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daryl Elder:
Hi Guys,
The solution is the regular 1895 model. It's still very short and handy and you don't have to put up with the noise or particles. Lots of knock down power and accurate. 470 Mbogo

.470, I gotta agree. After having shot both kinds now, I am pretty happy I chose the 22"er over the GG. I would be plenty happy with the GG but I prefer the standard 1895SS for general use.

If I was carrying it at work, or in a scabbard all the time I think I would go with the GG though.

Canuck

The ports and the noise factor don't bother me. I always wear ear plugs when shooting--not hunting. My definition of rude is my Casull with full house loads. That thing spits junk out everywhere and is indeed noisy! For as many shots taken hunting with the GG it is tolerable. My 9.3 or my '06 give quite a bark,too, but that GG is very handy in the thick stuff

Blackwater or anyone:

Who or where and how do you contact Clyde Ludwig? I'm not fond of that safety button either. I have the 22 inch barrel and it is deadly on feral hogs. Shot a 250 pound plus sow the other evening, with Winchester 300 gr JHPs and it went thru one shoulder, perfect mushroom and lodged just under the hide in the opposite side just behind the shoulder. I didn't measure it but that would be at least 12 inches of penetration and probably a bit more. I also have not weighed the recovered bullet yet, but it is intact and, as I said, a perfect mushroom. I haven't handled the guide gun but I find the 22 inch barral to be just about the right length for dense brush hunting around here. Seems to me there would be a good bit of velocity loss if you shortened it to 18 1/2 and the .45/70 needs all the help it can get in the velocity area. Am holding out for a longer barrelled Stainless version in any of the big bore calibers, have the itch to try out a .444. I know, I know, not much difference, just different.

Does anyone know who does custom work on Marlins, such as replacing the 18 1/2 incher with a longer version? Accuracy work? Thanks. CAT

Because of the large expansion ratio of the .45 bore I would think that there would be as much velocity loss as compared to, for example, a 30/06 or .270 etc. But, I haven't had the opportunity to clock the GG. With a 400 or 500 gr. bullet it may be academic?

I don't know about the 45-70, but with the 444 in the 18 1/2" bbl. to the 22" bbl. there is relatively little velocity loss, about 100-130 fps. This is according to some articles on the Beartooth bullets web site. With heavy bullets (350+ gr) velocity loss is under 100fps with the exact same load. The shorter bbl. also showed tighter groups with the heavier cast bullets.
This is only for the 444 Marlin in the "Outfitter", which is identical to the Guide Gun except for caliber. Not sure how the 45-70 would react, since it probably has a different twist.

Gatagordo, Clyde's address is:
P.O. Box 26156
Wauwatosa, WI 53226-0156
Phone: 414-536-1101

Send him a money order or cashier's check for $12.95 and you'll be VERY pleased I think. Just had a buddy over yesterday and showed it to him, and though he'd said he wouldn't give it house room prior to seeing it, now he said he'd be getting himself a GG soon.

Also, for the poster above (sorry, don't remember the name as I write this) who's worried about velocity loss in the shorter, ported GG barrel: Fagiddaboudit! As someone else noted, the .45/70's expansion ratio is so good that neither the trajectory or the velocity would be distinguishable between the 18 1/2" GG and the 26" CB rifle. With that big .45 cal. hole down the barrel, there's plenty of room to burn the powder before it hits the end of any rifle length barrel, and in fact, the 14" Contenders don't give up much to the rifles. Those big, blunt bullets have to be driven a LOT faster in order to show just a little improvement in trajectory at the ranges where we normally shoot our game.

Also, FWIW, with "below dynamite level" loads, those ports in the GG's barrel really don't have a very big effect. I shoot near the top of the "1895" load levels, and even there, the pressure at the muzzle is so low that the ports just don't have that much effect. I've already got tinnitis, and the good part is this level of loads isn't all that loud, either - a big plus for me!

Frankly, I just don't see the attraction for shooting the hottest loads in the 1895. The 300 gr. JHP's just aren't designed for much above 1800 fps., expansion wise, and the trajectory just isn't flattened all that much by the really hot loads. I think a still strong, but easier shooting load makes more sense because we can shoot so much more of them. Load some 300 gr. cast bullets at 1800, 350's at maybe 1650, and 400's at 1500 or so, and you've got a REAL FUN LOAD, that you can shoot bunches of - like 100 per trip to the range. THIS lets you get really familiar with the trajectory, and most assuredly helps us if we ever need to make a quick snap shot. A few "thunder and lightening" loads is almost obligatory, but after that, lots of shooting beats lots of "boom" every single time. Just my 2 cents' worth.

I had a 1895 with 22''barrel magnaported it and put on a recoil pad.It was pleasant to shoot even with heavy loads and was quite accurate for a lever gun,but on two occasions when I short stroked the lever it locked up in mid stroke.It had to be disassembled to correct problem contacted Marlin and they implied that was normal.I got rid of it and now have a winchester 1886