Well... I've taken the bait and have decided to build up a 450 something on a lever action, question is which one?
I've looked at the various Marlins and have no problems with them. However, this area of firearms really throws me into the romantic nostalgic dept. so a Winchester 71 or 1886 seems my only option.
I have seen several of the Browning 71s and '86s as well as some of the new Win.'86s, all seem a worthy platform upon which to build this rifle. I have also located several old M71s for a reasonable price and wonder how much better, if any the new guns are compared to the old 71s. Any ideas and comments greatly appreciated.

I do not have a 71 or 1886 in ths shop, but I sure would like to have one for a few days to do some serious measuring and determine just how much COL the action can take, with a few modifications. Maybe a Browning 1886 made of modern materials. With a 336, you can get about 1/10" inch more length than standard by machining the carrier rearward. I am running the 50 cal. 336 at 2.680" COL.

The 1886 and 71 have a much larger barrel shank and thread than the 338, makes for a safer conversion. And the centerline spacing of the 71 & 1886 magazine tube to barrel center is much more than the 336, this solves the complicated feeding and omits the S-Bend in the magazine tube required for the 336, and omits the requirement to mill a deep groove in the bottom of the 336 barrel to clear the magazine tube.

With the 450 and 500 grain bullets, a very heavy crimp is required to hold the bullets in place in the tubular magazine. The standard bullet seat die crimp is not enough. I made a large collet type crimp die, threaded 1-1/4"-12, for the 50 cal, it fits my RockChucker press with the reducer bushing removed. And, out on the front of the magazine, a stronger end cap is needed with firm attachment to the barrel, otherwise you will find yourself with the cartridges that were once in the magazine somewhere out front in the dirt!! Recoil is recoil, and weak attachments fail. Sights also need to be attached very firmly, akin to a full barrel band front ramp silver soldered in place.

Once you get your hands on a properly constructed lever gun with over 5000 ft/lbs of energy, you will be amazed. Most folks miss the boat and make the guns too light and use inferior sights & accessories. Build it like a classic heavy caliber DGR for success.

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Currently in Exile on the Beautiful Olympic Peninsula of Washington State.

My Warden sometimes allows me to respond to email. NEW Address is rifles@earthlink.net

***********Jail Flash*******
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Hi John Ricks,
You know the pictures of my 71 in .450AK, I use a col of 2.795". Would that much be enough?
I have a spare 71 waiting to be turned into something, you can borrow it if you like. Besides, I was thinking about you doing the conversion on it for me.
DMC

[This message has been edited by DaveC (edited 02-21-2002).]

I would suggest contacting Jim Brockman. He built a .458 lever gun for a friend of mine and it looks/shoots real nice!

He can probably give several suggestions.

Regards
Mike

Dave-
If you are going to donate the rifle I might have to look at that! Of course, I get to keep it after we're all done experimenting.
This is indeed a great subject and one that offers many possibilties. I have an idea that a 500-3" Nitro case that was cut down in length and then necked to 458 would be an ultimate for the lever gun. The COAL is the determining factor,IMO.

Oops,
I need to pay more attention. My post was meant for John Ricks. Sorry for the error.
The .348 and .50-110 case have a rim diameter of .605-.608, what is the rim diameter of the .500 nitro? I don't have Cartidges of the World handy. I think that the Sharps line had a .650" rim.
I don't know what the max rim diameter a 71 would accept.

Dave-
A 500-3" Nitro case measures .650", so I'm betting this would be an easy deal!

I have one of the new 86 winchester extra lights. The COAL of the action is 2.88 inches same as the 45/90. The new production winchesters are manufactured to SAMMI specs (2.550 COAL) and need some mods to the feed gate area, some lifter work and a chamber throat job to feed cycle and chamber the longer cartridge length. The action will cycle rounds loaded out to approximately 2.80 inches out of the magazine and into the chamber but they will not make it through the feed gate at this length(had to load the dummy rounds from the top, directly into the cartridge lift mechanism). I just sent my rifle to Dave Clay to be modified to feed and chamber 45/70's loaded out to 2.88. Should give me about 3/8 inch more powder capacity. Mr. Clay is also converting the 86 winchester to chamber the 50/110 and he is working on a 450/110.

As to strength of the action Mr. Clay and Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammo both state that the new 86 Winchesters can easily handle 55,000 psi loads while the marlin is limited to about 43,000 psi.

Just my thoughts,
Jeff Collins

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The true measure of a hunters skill is not the size of the trophy but rather the length of the shot with the greater measure of skill being the shorter shot...and the greatest measure of skill being the shorter hike back to camp---Jeff Cooper

[This message has been edited by jnc91 (edited 02-21-2002).]

Jeff-
I wonder if a new Browning M71 will handle the 55,000psi loads? I would think it would, given that is was made by the same people in the same factory and likely with the same materials.
The 450-110 idea interests me a lot and I would be curious to know if a M71 could be altered to handle it.
Does Mr. Clay have an email or website address? How about a phone number? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 02-21-2002).]

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 02-21-2002).]

John,
I don't know for sure if the Browning 71 is as strong as the 86 but I believe that it is. Makes sense that it would be, same design, factory, materials etc...The only question I would have about the 71 would be action length and I just don't know that answer.

Mr Clay has also chambered Marlin 1895 for the 50/110. It can be seen on the Marlin site. He told me that he only did it to prove it could be done and that it would probably be cost prohibitive to offer to the public as it requires the manufacture of several new internal parts.

He is however planning on offering a 50 Texan and a 450 Texan based on a 50 Alaskan Case lengthened by .2 inch. He says that it is fairly easy to make those function in the marlin. Might be a good option if your 71 is not quite long enough for the 450/110.

Dave Clay can be reached at

DRC Custom Guns
809 Harris Road
Arlington TX 76001
(817)465-7338

http://www.drccustomgunsights.com/.

Right on about the cost prohibitive issue of chambering a M1895 Marlin (basically a 336 straight grip receiver) for the big 50's. The 50 I built with a 2.680" COL took a lot of work and many hours to get it to feed flawlessly. I would not build another on a Marlin.

2.88" COL is getting into the right ballpark. I am betting with a bit of internal modifications 3 inches would be obtainable with an '86. Combined with a 22 inch barrel, 5500 plus ft/lbs should be easily obtainable. Even at 2.88" this should be possible. I will see what QuickLoad says.

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Currently in Exile on the Beautiful Olympic Peninsula of Washington State.

My Warden sometimes allows me to respond to email. NEW Address is rifles@earthlink.net

***********Jail Flash*******
Web site under construction: http://home.earthlink.net/~rifles/

Since I don't own any of the above mentioned calibers, all I can restate is what I have been told and what my guess would be!
If a 450AK is built properly on a M71, it can be loaded to 2.80" so, for the 450-110 or others to be a worthwhile increase they would need to be loaded to at least 2.950" and 3.00" would be better. If they are loaded to less than that I'm afraid all one is doing to get the extra velocity is loading to higher pressures than the 42K psi level of the 450AK! Since that level is set by the rifle used, why would a bigger case offer anything extra? Am I missing something here?

Your are certainly correct that the longer COAL would be better if it isn't too expensive to achieve. I do believe, however, that even if you are limited to 2.88 inches you will benefit because even though the bullet is seated deeply case capacity is gained because the shoulder is moved farther foward and I am guessing will be blown out compared to the 450AK which has a taper.

I guess this is a cost benefit analysis that you have to make for yourself