For the purpose of this debate I want to use 400 grain bullets in either of these cartridges. Range would be limited to 150 yards and animals hunted would be moose, brown bear, and possibly the large African animals. Most likely the rifle would be iron sighted or possibly a 1x4 or 1x5 scope. What would you pick and why?

I'd go with the .416 Remington, since the sectional density will be better, and 400gr. grain bullets are what it's designed to use.

(If you want to use a .458, go with 450gr. bullets on the game you mentioned; SD improves over the 400gr. .458" bullets, and you can drive the 450grs. around 2200fps.)

George

If your maximum range is only going to be 150 yards then the .458 Win will perform quite nicely with either 400, 450 or 500gr bullets (I personally would use 500's if I was working at 150 yards or less).

It's when you get beyond 150 yards that the .416 shines with it's flatter trajectory and higher retained velocity.

Easy, 416 Rem, and I'd load it with 350 gr bullets at 2600 fps for Alaskan use.

I would not choose the 458 win loaded with 500 gr bullets, because it has too much recoil to be shot from any old field position, but that does not hold for the 416 with 400 gr or less bullets.

Actually my island deer rifle is a 458 Lott, but I load it with 350's @ 2400-2500, something I can shoot from any field position. I already had the barrel on hand, and componet bullets are a bit easier to find, as well as bullet molds. But, if I were to build a dedicated Alaskan/DGR rifle, I think the 416 is a better choice.

At 150 yrds iron sighted and assuming you can really keep 3 shots from either gun on a paper palate at 100 yrds OFFHAND. There is no difference. If you really can't keep it on the plate, then choose whichever gets closest. One thing to consider is a .458 win can be built on a M90/FN mauser really light. 8lbs or less. you just can't do that for a .416. Remember, you'll be carrying much more than shooting.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
For the purpose of this debate I want to use 400 grain bullets in either of these cartridges. Range would be limited to 150 yards and animals hunted would be moose, brown bear, and possibly the large African animals. Most likely the rifle would be iron sighted or possibly a 1x4 or 1x5 scope. What would you pick and why?

You really need to explain what you mean by "large African animals." Big does not necessarily equate with dangerous.

Meant buffalo and elephant (if I win the lottery).

One question: Why limit the .458 to 400 grain pills?

Tough one. Using Federal 400gr TBBC the .458 drops .1" more at 200yrds. I would go with .458 Winnie because TKO at 150 yards is 4.8 pts more. Hell, personally I would use something else.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Meant buffalo and elephant (if I win the lottery).

Okay. Then I would use the .416 with any of the premium 400 grain bullets (solids for elephant; softs for buff with solids for back-up) or the .458 with any of the same at 500 grains. 400 grain bullets in .458 are a bit light for caliber for elephant or buff.

For 400 gr loads, the sectional density of .416 is around .329; for .458, that is around .272. The .416 ostensibly should penetrate more given other factors being equal. However, in practice, variations in bullet design, and individual shots (where it hit, what kinds of tissues, which animals, etc) can make it hard to see the advantages on a shot-by-shot basis (you'd see it in the average over time).

The trajectories are almost identical for .416 rigby/rem and .458 win for 400 gr loads, according to Federal's ballistics charts. This is the one thing that makes the 400gr loads attractive for me -- the trajectory can be completely competitive with .416's, giving a little more reach, and the performance hit isn't going to hurt what I can hunt with it locally (good practice).

Putting moose together with brown bears in terms of difficulty to kill is a little strange (elk are supposedly tougher than moose).

In my rifle, the open sights could not be adjusted enough (simply not enough verticle range) to account for the difference in trajectory between a 400gr and 500gr load.

The big advantage of the .458 win can best be seen with the heavier loads with African dangerous game. Yup -- Alaskan brown bears can weigh almost as much as a cape buff -- imagine a cape buff with 6" claws and huge teeth -- except they aren't (*quite*) cape buff in terms of toughness. That does not say anything about hippos, rhinos, and elephants. Other folks on this site have made it quite clear that, if your .458 will perform better with 500 gr loads, why handicap yourself when you're facing dangerous game? On the other hand, there've been plenty of comments that the .375 H&H shooting 300gr loads are quite sufficient for cape buff -- almost all the time. If so, the .458 shooting 400gr loads likely would do OK... EXCEPT that its hard to find bullets to load that will really do what you're looking for!!!! Swift makes A-frames, with flat noses in 400gr .458; A-square makes their triad in 450gr .458; Barnes makes some stuff in the lighter end. Federal loads TBBC 400gr in .458, but doesn't sell those bullets separately under Speer; no solids. It is very hard to find solids in 400gr in .458!! So, to that extent, this is a theoretical question when it comes to African DG. ON THE OTHER HAND, a number of companies produce soft-nose pointy (don't gag all over my clothes) bullets in 400gr .458's, including Barnes Originals (they claim these are designed to open up at .458 win mag velocities, and to have good weight retention at those speeds), Woodleigh Weldcores (protected point, semi-spires) also listed to perform at .458 win velocities with bonded-bullet performance.

In the end, I guess its up to you what you want to do.

Dan

Whitworth,
No particular reason I limited the 458 to 400 grain bullets. It was just the restrictions of the debate. I have never owned a 458 but I do own a 416 and used to own a 450 Ackely. I would think the 400 grain pill would be a better choice to us that handload on Alaskan animals. Seeing both were iron sighted they would be a heavy hitting short range rifle. I am gussing either cartridges would toss the 400 grain bullet out at about 2200-2300 fps. Both in my opinion are overkill for Alaskan Big game but I like big bores!

I made that same decision many years ago, Tried them both, I chose the 416 Rem and 404 Jefferys, over my .458, a decision I have never regretted..

The 458 was and is a poorly designed cartridge with minimum powder space prone to compaction and failure..Properly loaded it will work but who wants to deal with any poorly designed round when their are so many calibers to choose from.

If I had a .458 today I would, without hesitation, chamber it out to the 458 Lott, a very nice round with no defects, it is what Win should have produced in the first place.

But we all must make our own decisions and if all I had was a .458 Win. then I would load it properly and it would get me by I suspect.