Hello,
Ran across an unusual rifle and wondered if anyone had some info. on them.

It's a Winchester 1910 in 410 win. so a self loading carbine is not all that scarce, but it's engraved Lyon & Lyon Calcutta on the receiver.

Has anyone else seen one so marked? I have seen an 1895 405 winnie with that address but no autoloaders. I wonder if someone thought it might not be a bad idea to have a semi auto carbine when going after tiger. I am not positive that's the reason it was imported to Calcutta but can't think of another reason...

Anyways, if anyone has any additional information on such a rifle I'd love to hear it. Not sure if Corbett or anyone else of the era spoke of them.

Saw one other marked Manton & Co. Calcutta in a search but it was in Islamabad but other than a picture of one in Pakistan I can't find any other info!

-mark

You mean .401 WSL.

George

Correct, 401 wsl.
Sorry, typo!

No other additional info. to add other than the only other one I saw had what looked like an old winnie lever gun express sight. This one appears std.

Lyon and Lyon was distributor in India as I understand it..I suspect that rifle was a police rifle or perhaps a guard rifle for some company, just a guess.

The rifle itself was well made clip fed automatic. The Mod. 1905 in 35 self loading, 1907 in .351, and the .401 was a Mod.1910. The .351 caliber, mod. 1907 was very popular in the USA as a police rifle up into the 1950s.

Neat old guns, I have owned a couple of them in both .351 and 401 in years past..Hunted a bit with them, and was not very impressed.

The .401 is a pretty fair short range Whitetail deer rifle up to a max of 100 yards and better at 50 yards I sure wouldn't want to shoot a tiger with one under any circumstances short of in a trap.

Thanks for the info, Ray.

That's a good guess that it was probably intended for police use, being there were plenty of more adequate American rifles during that time for tigers, the 1895 being one I've heard of over there.

Just thought perhaps someone might have documentation or heard stories of some adrenaline junky stalking through the woods carrying a 40 cal. autoloader... now that would have been interesting!

As is, I guess about all it has going for it is the retailer markings and a unique American rifle in an odd place.

There does not seem to be much of a collector marketplace for these right now, but they seem very well made so perhaps one day they will go up in value.

Interestingly, the .351WSL was more popular with police than the .401 WSL rifles. The .401's I've seen were often marked as railway guard guns. I've looked at a few over the years and for some reason the .401's are often encountered with bulged barrels or shortened barrels. Bad Ammo? You find many more .351's in pretty good shape and police marked. Thats why I've never bought one. I have a .351 WSL and as Ray said its a nice shooter and pretty accurate. The .401 WSL is Way Way too anemic a round for tigers.-rob

I have a 351 that in checking the serial number was built in 1923. A friend worked up some ammo for me using 357 Magnum brass and 180 grain copper plated lead bullets. I have killed 2 deer and 1 javelina with it. Fun little gun to carry and mess with but I wouldn't push it beyond 60 yards or so for shooting at deer.

How did he make 351 cases from 357 brass? Did he cut the rim off or what?

Police in India used what was issued, not "private purchase" weapons and certainly not sourced via an importer but purchased DIRECT from the manufacturer.

My guess is that it was touted, as was the Vickers made 276 Pedersen, as a "defense gun" for plantation owners in Malaya and purchased, via Calcutta in India, by such a person.

Whilst we "Brits" may no longer have a sporting arms industry we did then and customers that knew about hunting and hunting rifles.

I doubt that any serious hunter (professional or amateur) would have considered the .401 as a serious hunting weapon for any quarry.

Particularly given that India would have been "awash" with cheap secondhand British made sporting guns at that time and not expensive new made American imports.

No I think it was bought as a "defense gun" by a planter or maybe factory with a large payroll or maybe a jewel merchant.

No arguement here, When I referred to Law Enforcement I was thinking security guards for plantations etc. etc. and it was just a guess. I do know the .351 was a very popular Police gun in the USA for many years as were the Rem. mod 8 and 81s, also issued by the USBP up into the 50s. The Win 94 was also a well known gun in the Prison system and in L.E.

quote:

Lyon and Lyon was distributor in India as I understand it..I suspect that rifle was a police rifle or perhaps a guard rifle for some company, just a guess.

Sorry, not meant to sound like an argument, apologies if it came across that way. Like e-mails posts here can't reflect intonation of voice as it were.

I'd agree a "guard rifle" most likely. Definitely not, because of the way they purchased at that time, a police issue.

quote:

How did he make 351 cases from 357 brass? Did he cut the rim off or what?

Turned 20 thousandths off the rim and opened up the extractor groove.

They function just fine but do not last long. They will split at the case mouth after 3 or 4 loadings.

from what we have looked at 357 maximum caseas are closer to actual case dimensions but regular 357 magnum are easier to get and work just fine.

Thanks Crazyhorse, appreciate that update. I have a friend that is a tinkering so and so and an avid handloader and he will love this information as he has a .351 and a 401.

.351 WSL seems to show up at gunshows pretty regularly. It still works fine too. Not terribly pricey either. $35 per 50 rds is the usual going price. I have a 20 rd mag for mine that came with the gun that looks factory too.-Rob

Interestingly, here in UK, the 401 cartridge gained a "second life" in WWII (with a different bullet) as a booby trap cartridge called the 40 Pistol Ground Spike or 40 Booby Trap.