I currently have a .458 Win Mag barreled action project which I need to complete after 23 years of its sitting in my shop. (SOMETIMES I tend to get a little behind....)

Anyway, I am debating whether to finish it up as a plain old sporting rifle, or as a Mannlicher-style stocked carbine. I'm sorta leaning toward the sporting rifle because it would be so much easier and quicker than the carbine to do. But the carbine would certainly LOOK spiffy...and would probably handle well in dense bush too.

But, let's assume for the moment it will be a sporting rifle. As I still have to profile the barrel, which is 1-1/8" diameter from one end to the other (24" right now), which taper would you pick for yourself, and more important, how long? And most important, WHY that taper and length?

This rifle is NOT going to Africa. It will serve mainly as a ++P .450 Marlin would, with only the occasional full boat magnum load required.

Please don't respond with just figures of taper and length. Please take the time and space to tell me why you would choose those numbers.

Muchas gracias.

I like the Sako Mannlicher carbines. I have one in .375 H&H Mag. Not sure what the barrel profile is, but it's not too heavy and 20 inches long. I wouldn't want a shorter one. Why? It balances and handles well and just "feels" right in the hands and at the shoulder. Might want to check one out.

I know this doesn't answer your question, bu given your intended use, the Mannlicher full-stocked carbine sounds awfully nice. Never thought about it, but now I want one.

Gotta go +1 with the Sako carbine profile and length, although, a guy could do a lot better on making the stock easier on the eyes.

If it were me, I would profile it same as a Pre-64 Mod 70 .458. I know you can't match the length as you are already 1" short.
Why? It just works, balances well.

You guys (except African Hunter) are all EVIL! When I bought the action 25 years ago, it was my intent to make it into a Mannlicher-style carbine. I chambered it, and installed the barrel, and proof fired it, then somewhere, life got in the way. Fast forward to now....

I was hoping that you here would all help talk me out of that carbine, because it would be a lot of work. If you would suggest 22", 23", or 24" inch barrels, the carbine idea will go away (eventually).

Otherwise, I'm gonna have a LOT of work to do, cause I'll have to make (as in "cobble up") a composite Mannlicher stock for it, and fit some kind of forend tip. I don't want a pretty wood stock "nicer" than a Sako. I'd like to take this rifle into the PacNW rain forests and those of BC/Alaska too, for use where a person gets lots of rain, spinkled with occasional good close shots at some big critters.

Well, the wife and I have drug her wood stocked Mannlicher stocked Husqvarna .270 into swamps for moose, tundra for caribou, the old-growth for deer, and to three maountain ranges for sheep and it has never let us down. I'm sure you will find a way to make it work. Now get to it, times a wasting.

quote:

Originally posted by labdad:
Well, the wife and I have drug her wood stocked Mannlicher stocked Husqvarna .270 into swamps for moose, tundra for caribou, the old-growth for deer, and to three maountain ranges for sheep and it has never let us down. I'm sure you will find a way to make it work. Now get to it, times a wasting.

Yassuh, Boss! I jist comed up wif another idee. I knows dis boy who done already made me a couple dem composite stocks, 'cludin' one fer dis .30 Newton I gots. So I'ze jist sended him an e-mail askin' wuz he interested in stockin' dis one? Done tole him you'd pay half, gare-on-teed....

Well, actually, I didn't tell him that last part, but I did just now e-mail him about laying up a Mannlicher-style stock, in OD with black leaf camo finish. We'll see if he'll do it, and if he will, what he'll want to charge me to do it. (The older I get, the less work I want to do....)

Let us know how this develops. Might be interested in a similar project down the road.

I,ve pondered the fiberglass MPI mannlicher stocks more than once.. Have no personal experience using them, but in theory, a sleek, handy, little mannlicher in .458 Win mag sounds absolutely delightful!
If that,s who you,re goin with, keep us posted.
Whoever you get to do the stock, I,m quite curious about this one.. Thought about getting a fiberglass stock for the CZ 9.3 FS a few times. Did,nt seem like a good idea to set a dangerous precedent, come up with a way to make less guns a practical option..
Yeah. I,m votin Mannlicher.
What do you think it,s gonna weigh when it,s done?

The only 458 I have is a stock Whitworth I bought recently. But my favorite Afican rifles are a 375 H&H ZKK 602 and a 416 Rigby CZ 550. Both have 21" barrels which I find to be the perfect length for Africa. I find them quick to handle and VERY easy to get into a truck and hold while sitting. Just plain handy. I have only comissioned 2 rifles in my life as I have mostly built my own thru the years having been a smith for over 50 years. The 2 I commissioned were a 7x57 and a 257 Roberts and both have 22" barrels. The 257 has a particularly heavy Lilja barrel and shoots like gangbusters. I LIKE short,heavy barrel for caliber rifles. Just do . No particular reason just always have. Do not like non-wood stocks but at present am seriously considering buying a Savage Hog Hunter in 223 for coyotes. Synthetic stock,short,reasonably heavy barrel. Nice looking --- to me. Desirable.

Odd man out here--Have you looked at michael458's short barrels? I am a fan have one in 416 B-M. the the concept works. Grins I also have a 416 Rem mag w/20 in barrel-love it.

SSR

If I were going to hunt with it I would want a 21" barrel for a good compromise of portability and velocity. I'd choose a lighter profile as well-- even large bores don't kick too bad when fired standing.

If I were just target shooting I would keep the barrel at 24" and heavy to aid in accuracy and recoil.

I kept the barrel on my one at 23.5" so as to keep the velocity at a comfortable 2150fps.

I REALLY like the looks of OZHunter's rifle. Reminds me of my old Browning Safari-grade rifle in .458 Win. Not exactly the same but very similar. Just for grins, I had a small ruby set into the top of the bolt knob. It got some grins (and jeers), but I thought it looked nice as it was a very discreet-size stone and the colour blended well with the dark reddish walnut of the Browning..

Anyway, my kevlar-carbon fibre-fibreglass mannlicher stock for my .458 is now under construction as we speak. Nice thing is barrel length is still up to me. He'll make the stock fit whatever length of barrel I choose. For the moment, I am still going with 20", but have even considered having a mannlicher-stocked 22" barreled rig when I'm done.

What do you guys thing about THAT idea? What are the pros and cons as you see them?

AC

For a Canadian, Alaskan, North American 458 Win Mag I think a 20" barrel would be perfect.

I too am a fan of a full length stock rifle.

I think a 458 Win Mag with a North Fork 350gr or 400gr Soft would be just about perfect, for any big NA game hunted under 250 yards.

For what you are doing I would Definately go 20" rather than 22".

Thanks 450...

350 gr. bullets are exactly what I had in mind for most uses. I haven't tried any Northforks yet, but will when the rifle is completed.

I also have a slew (like maybe 20) of different .458 bullet moulds from about 280 grains to about 550 grains. Will try some of those out with a couple of fairly stout alloys too. It's amazing what a 350 to 450 grain unjacketed lead bullet will do at an impact velocity of about 1,600 to 1,800 fps.

EXTREMELY curious to see the finished gun.. Would,nt mind seein the progress as it goes along.. Think 20 is about right for a mannlicher, much longer and they start looking spindly. Off balance.
Good call.

I'd skip the Mannlicher stock. Useless extra weight. More wood out there to get dinged up on branches and stuff. Harder to float the barrel and therefore less accurate. I can't think of any offsetting advantages.

AC

I and some of my buddies have used the 350gr Hounady RN and FP to shoot deer, pigs and black bear with great results.

I have used the RN in a 45/70, 458 Win Mag and in a 450 No2 at velocities from @1800 to @2330fps with excellent results.

On bigger BIG game I would use the North Fork 350gr SP. I have some of them but I have not killed anything with them yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I'd skip the Mannlicher stock. Useless extra weight. More wood out there to get dinged up on branches and stuff. Harder to float the barrel and therefore less accurate. I can't think of any offsetting advantages.

Interesting post.

Apparently you missed the point from early on that it is NOT a wood stock.

Second, despite internet legends and myths perpetrated by some gun-writer flaks, bedded barrels are no less accurate than floated ones. What matters is how WELL the barrel is bedded, not whether it is floating or not.

Third, it is hard to get too much weight in a 20" barreled, sporter contoured .458 Magnum for comfortable shooting.

And fourth, the offsetting advantage is that I LIKE mannlicher stocks. So it is going to have one.

NE 450 No. 2 -


Thanks a whole bunch for your latest post on this thread. I have a lot of those 350 gr. Hornadys 'cause I use them often in my .45-70 Browning '86. I back them with 59 grains of either IMR 4895, or the same weight of either VV N-135 or Tubal 5000 powders. They are very accurate, but I often wondered just how well they would do on bears. Pigs and bears are very similar in many ways, so your information is really of value to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Muttly:
EXTREMELY curious to see the finished gun.. Would,nt mind seein the progress as it goes along.. Think 20 is about right for a mannlicher, much longer and they start looking spindly. Off balance.
Good call.

IF I end up getting a digital camera and a new computer with a scanner, I'll try to send you some pics of the finished rifle. I won't be able to show you the in process stuff because it turns out I am not going to be doing the stock work and it is being done 4 states away from here.

That "spindly" thing you mention is why I was thinking 20" for barrel length. I considered 19" for a while, but that seemed cutting it a bit short for a .458 charged with about 70 grains of powder. Don't want to start any forest fires.

As to finished weight, I really don't have any idea what it will weigh, but my guess is 9 pounds or under...hopefully not much under.

And you are right, it IS "Doc" up at MPI who is doing the work for me. I have two other stocks he built and finished for me, and am tickled pink with both of them. Both those rifles turned out to be VERY accurate and I have had them now for about 25-27 years with no accuracy changes or other problems at all. They are both hunting rifles, but shoot well enough to be across the course target rifles if they were configured to be clip loadable.

Here's what I was talking about above - since as they say a picture is worth 1,000 words!

Yeh, Michael, I had a friend in Calgary who had quite a number of those Sako Mannlichers in various chamberings. I take it the pic is your .375? Anyway, nice looking guns, I think, your's included.

Hopefully mine will look fairly similar except it won't have a leaf rear sight on it...it'll have either a cocking-piece peep sight or a receiver sight which is part of the rear scope base, when everything is said and done.

Thank you, AC, appreciate that!
Also like hearing about a guy that does good work. Been curious about those stocks a bunch of times, have,nt yet seen one up close and personal.
Yup. Sounds like it should be a fun little tasmanian devil approved sorta gun.

Yup, AC, that's my .375. I put a Kahles 1.1-4x24mm Helia CSX scope on top in Talley mounts and rings, and it still comes in right around 9 pounds or so.

Makes for a handy DG carbine.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Yup, AC, that's my .375. I put a Kahles 1.1-4x24mm Helia CSX scope on top in Talley mounts and rings, and it still comes in right around 9 pounds or so.

Makes for a handy DG carbine.

And a great AAR! (All Around Rifle) Just the right scope too I suspect.

Update

Things are coming together; have made the following arrangements...

Weight of finished rifle sans scope and mounts to be 8-1/2 to 8-3/4 pounds. MPI will do the barrel profiling, to be sure it fits their forend caps well & makes the weight desired.

Barrel length will be 20" with 11-degree crown.

Stock colour to be matt Olive Drab background, with black "tree leaves" over that.

I HATE black recoil pads, so asked them to put on the thickest, best recoil-absorbing pad they can come up with in either reddish or brownish colour.

MPI will be providing the forend cap, as well as a front sight.

Will leave the military trigger on it...this one has been honed to an ultra crisp 3-1/4 lbs, which is exactly what I like for magnum rifles. I also like double pull triggers when the final pull is crisp like this, so I view that as a positive, not a negative.

I have an adjustable cocking piece sight, so will put that on there when the rest is done.

When I get the gun back, I'll drive it over to Robbie Barkman's (about 7-10 miles away) and have him apply his Robar MP-3 finish to it.

LOP will be 13-3/4".

Still have to decide on bottom metal. I don't like straddle floorplates, so may see if I can convert one of Dave Kiff's hinged steel Mauser efforts to fit.

Also haven't finally decided on the scope, but think I'll put a Lyman Alaskan on it. I've got one in the scraps box, in perfect condition, and I really like those steel 2-3/4-X scopes with their 3.5"-to-4.5" or more of eye relief on heavy kickers. They had the old Bausch & Lomb glass in them, so are very clear, and I like the flat-topped post reticule for up close and personal.

AC

The only 350gr Hornady I have ever recovered was from a pig @ 250lbs. I shot him facing me at about 45 yards or so, with my 450 No2 Double, velocity @2330fps.
The bullet struck just off center of his face, split his skull open pretty good and traveled into the heart lung area. The bullet was expanded well and had the look of a bullet that had hit a lot of bone but still held together quite well, IMHO.

All others have been pass throughs.

There were two pigs standng together, so after I shot this pig with the right barrel, I shot the other pig just behind the shoulder with the left barrel. Both dropped to the shot.

Don't know whether to ask this in the gunsmithing forum or here, but will try here first.

Does anyone know where I can get a a nice ramp front night sight for my .458? I want one which shows a normal size gold bead by day, with a fold-up large white bead for late evening use.

I checked Brownell's catalogue and the only night sights they show online are for the AR-15 platform....

New England Custom Gun Service, has an H&H style ramp, looks pretty close. Silver bead instead of gold, part number R-111-610, in their volume 5 catalog. Large bead, .150, flip forward for small bead, .0781..
Showin 5 heights, from .158 to .2813.

Thank you very much Muttly. Will see if I can contact them on line to look at one. Can't imagine why they make silver beads though...not much else harder to see in varied light. That's why in the old days folks were always "blacking" their sights...or even putting mud on them...to make them visible.

You,re welcome.
Yeah, got a black bead with a white center on one. Nice bright sunny summer day, it,s not too bad. Overcast, bit foggy, anything dark, it just dissapears on me.
Think I,m going to try a red fiber front sight, notice I seem to see red off at a distance a little bit better. Little bit colour blind, greens tend to blend to grey for me.

N.E.C.G. also has their 'Masterpiece' with changeable beads and you can get the gold bead with a flip up large white night sight. I prefer them to the fold forward H&H design. Brownells has them. I think they offer 2 bead sizes for the white flip up bead. I have them on a couple of rifles.

Zim -

Guess I'll have to call Brownell's as I can't find that sight listed anywhere on their website and I no longer have a current catalogue from them. I know they used to carry them, which is why I tried looking there before posting here.

Thanks for confirming that old memory. I will give them a call and see if they can help. If not, guess I'll then call NECG and see if they can assist.

I got an e-mail from Doc up at MPI stocks this morning, and they have received my rifle for stocking and are starting on laying the stock up. Doc suggested that so long as they are profiling the barrel for me anyway, they might as well put on whatever sights I want. So he wanted to know what sight I wanted him to get for me and from where.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Zim -

Guess I'll have to call Brownell's as I can't find that sight listed anywhere on their website

Try part number: 661-124-256

Thought I'd add this info for anyone who may be contemplating an MPI composite mannlicher stock for their rifle...

As the forend will be covering the barrel about where the front barrel-band-mounted sling swivel would normally be on a rifle with a standard stock, I asked "Doc" at MPI what we sould do about making a carrying sling possible?

Turns out that (like everyone else) he is way ahead of me...Doc regularly puts an aluminum block in as part of the forend with it's surface exactly the same height as the stock surface. There is a threaded hole in the block which accepts a stud for a QD sling swivel. So to carry the gun for any great distance, screw in the front stud and attach your sling. (The rear [buttstock] stud would normally be left in place all the time anyway.) When you get to where you plan to begin hunting, remove sling and front stud. Hunt.

On a rifle such as this one, in .458 Winchester, that seems to me like a good solution. Keeps one from banging up the left hand on the front swivel, and still makes the rifle easy to tote on the shoulder when that is appropriate.

Since you are not planning to use the rifle on DG and plan to use lighter bullets and also mentioned use of cast bullets, why not think of building a rifle with a substantially smaller throat, something that is more cast bullet friendly. It would likely mean that it's a hand loading proposition only, but you still use factory brass, dies etc.

FYI Hornady produce 500gr 458 pills with a 2 diameter design, .450 in front of the crimp groove and .458 to the rear of the groove, so a heavyweight DG suitable load could still be developed for a short throated rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
Since you are not planning to use the rifle on DG and plan to use lighter bullets and also mentioned use of cast bullets, why not think of building a rifle with a substantially smaller throat, something that is more cast bullet friendly.

It is just a tiny bit late for that. I barreled the action in 1988...just never got around to profiling the barrel and having it stocked until now.

Besides, I won't have any trouble using cast bullets in it. My experience with cast bullets has taught me enough over the years that I know how to make large, long, throats work even with "collar-button" bullets. I do that all the time in my commercial .45-70s.

Thanks for the idea, though. If I was starting from scratch it would be a thought well-worth seriously considering.