Gentlemen,
I don't understand. Nosler, Hornady, Hogden, and Federal all appear to put the ballistics for the 416 Rem Mag and the 416 Rigby essentially neck and neck. Then when I check out the Barnes manual it is different -- the "regular loads" between the two are close; however, in the "maximum" column the Rigby picks up substantial velocity advantage over the Rem Mag (I assume largely due to exercising its raw case capacity).

But some nagging questions remain:
1. Is the "Rigby Advantage" because Barnes is a little more gutsy and a little less risk averse and is publishing the high end loading info when the other companies don't? or....

2. Is it because of a difference in the Barnes bullets themselves, i.e. solid copper alloy versus jacketed lead core (any difference in density)?

3. I notice the loading data on this site offers velocities similar to Barnes however it does not state the bullet manufacturer or type (unless it remains "as above" until changed further below." Are these velocities available using "non-Barnes bullets? I'm hoping so.

4. Assuming I can handle the additional recoil and the game (not African) is out beyond 200 yards -- how "flaky" an exercise is it loading the Rigby up to 2600 with 400 grain bullets (of any type)?

5. Now looking at this site's data for the 416 Rem Mag, I see loads for going over 2600 -- so which cartridge is better if one is wanting to explore the "upper limits?"
-----------------

I'm not necessarily eager to exceed the Rigby recipe of 400 grs at 2400 fps BUT before buying I'd at least like to know my future options.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

[ 04-30-2003, 09:13: Message edited by: ELKampMaster ]

Without getting too involved, if you feel you may wish to push the envelope, with any given bullet, YES, the larger Rigby casing is preferable.

Those looking for the 400 Grain / 2,400 fps threshold in a trimmer rifle may opt for the Remington.

The majority of Reloading Manuals, especially those compiled by bullet manufacturers, adhere to a moderate operating pressure in regard to the Rigby, as it's ability to provide the desired 2,400fps with 400 grain bullets at such pressures is its' major strength. Barnes, well aware that their bullets will hold up well to increased velocities, often reflect so in their Manuals.

John Taylor reports that the Rigby's original ballistics were 410 grain bullet at 2,350 fps and 17 tons pressure (under 40,000 psi). This combination works very well in Africa, and handles high ambient temperatures.

If you convert all the "pressure reserve" in that big case to holding powder, you aren't going to handle high temperatures well. You are then depending on the behavior of your powder to keep you in a proper operating pressure zone. This strategy works in North America' cold-country hunting, but less well in hot climates.

"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

jim dodd

The rigby can push 400 grains at 2700 fps. With the remington, it's difficult to hit 2400 fps without excessive pressure.

The .416 Rigby is notoriously under loaded when compared to modern fire arm standards. As Hunter Jim pointed out, the original 1911 load called for pressures in the 40,000 CUP range. By today�s standards, this is quite mild. Accordingly, the Rigby as legs well beyond the Remington case.

I have not seen the need to push a 410gr bullet much past 2400 fps, however, the Rigby can achieve blistering performance. Not to mention blistering recoil at these velocities. All in all, the .416 Rigby is one of the most versatile big game cartridges out there. I would rather have a Rigby over the Remington case any day.

Another .416 case design to consider is the Dakota case. A little more efficient than the Rigby in a manageable case.

Interesting thread. Has anyone stopped to consider that the .387, 416, and .460 Weatherby's are all based on the .416 Rigby case? The only real differecne is Weatherby';s silly shoulder and the belt, plus a hell of a lot more powder. Methinks barnes has taken advantage of that fact in developing their loads for the Rigby.
What brought this to mind was, I remember reading about Jack O'Connor mentioning that he turned the belts off of IIRC, .460 Weatherby brass and ran then through the .416 Rigby sizing die.
I suppose that if one had a strong rifle in .416 Rigby, that one cold use .416 Wby. data and duplicate the loads, not that I'd care to. There is a case for not having too much velocity, as well as not enough.
Paul B.

I have no trouble getting 2400 FPS plus without high pressure!! in a 416 Remington...No different than a 30-06 or 270, I don't know where this stuff comes from...I have discussed this with some of the bullet makers and they don't seem to think the 416 Rem is operating at high pressures for the guns they are shot in..

I recall some blurb from an African magazine referring to this, but I marked it off as rumor mongering, without any basis what so ever...I have been shooting a 416 Rem in Africa for a couple of years and never a problem...It is probably the most popular gun in our camps the last couple of years and we have never seen a problem...

Kinda like the supposed problem with my 404 and my load, which BTW runs at 54,300 according to North Fork bullets...Mike also states you couldn't blow a gun up with IMR-4831 in the 404 case.

Paul - The .416 Weatherby has less body taper than the Rigby and a smidgen more case capacity. This, combined with lots of goofy freebore, makes the Weatherby achieve a little more velocity over the Rigby. (Of course the question WHY? springs to mind.) Accordingly, the load data for the .416 Weatherby and Rigby are not interchangeable.

As far as the �.378" Weatherby, it is beyond me why anyone would want to make 3050 fps with a .300 gr .375 bullet. The .378 is one of the most brutal recoiling cartridges out there. Truly an idea who�s time has not come.

I second that Ray.
The .416 Rem will get 2500fps with a 400 Nosler.
Pressure comes up a little quicker with the 400X, but 2400 is still easy to reach. I think R-15 is a hard powder to beat.
The Rigby at 2700 is at least as hot as the Rem. at 2500 in my opinion.

Zero Drift

The 416 Weatherby does not have the huge freebore of the 378 and 460. There is about .25" with a 350 grain Speer seated to the cannelure, not unlike the 375 H&H with many bullets.

Mike

I just love the big Wby's. Without them,,the firearms universe would have been boring !!
The only cartridge i think is pointless in the line of weatherby is .257 Wby and .378 !!
Why,,,well it has a great deal of recoil, that scares the most of us,,besides the bullets who can stand up to it's 3000 fps and 300 gr. aren't many. Maybe i contradict myself ,,but i try to see things from different point of view. Maybe if wby did'nt have .416 WBY AND .340 WBY the .378 could have been wanted,,but that's an individual choice. The .460 Wby is needed when doing the big business,,and it can be loaded down to 2500 fps,,which suits this case very well. But on the other hand the .416 wby can do very well on huge animals like elephant, as well. So i think it's no good saying that the .416 Wby is pointless. When a guy find the .378 the universal medicine,,i can understand that,,and respect it,,while others feel safe and (un)comfortable with the .460 wby. It's a matter of individual preferance and confidence in rifle,, as well as just wanting the cartridge in their rifle..But i must add that people go buy a .460 wby without being able to handle it on a huntexpidition,,is daydreamers and not very wise. Hunts is to be ethical as well as a whole lot of fun. If a guy wants a .460 wby during a hunt,,but have more confidence in a .358 Norma magnum,,he would of course choose the .358 !!
There are those who critizise the .460 for beeing too powerful,,but i think that's just crap. It's not so powerful. At 2500 fps, the .460 Thrives around like a fish in a fish bowl !!
At 2600 - 2700 fps, i can begin to understand peoples resistance to firing it, but there aren't many people who are so lucky to own a .460 with the capacity and 'individuality' to launch a bullet of 500 gr. and 124 gr.of imr-4350, without seeing dimple marks on their primers !!
I'm happy with my .416 wby,,but i also want the .460 even thoug it's no point !
The wbys rules,,and i would choose .270,.300, .340 ,.416,.460 Wbys as favorites. I would prefer a .375 wby over the .378 because of recoil tolerance and shootability. And the .378 has altogheter too much velocity,,but for people who knows how to handle it ,it's the perfect rifle, and too much of a good thing !

I feel the .378 weatherby does have something to offer and I would like to own one one day. Thing is it was probably bought out in a rifle that was really not that well thought out.

Put it in a cz action with a good stock and weighing in at about 10.5 to 11 pounds it would be fine I think. It could be used to push 350 gr .375 bullets at 300gr/.375 H&H velocities with the better sd of the heavier bullets it would penetrate great. I am suprised the African mob have not jumped on to this.

Africans, as a mob, are definatly not into velocity, they actually pretty much deplore it!!

99% of them like big heavy bullets at around 2100 to 2500 FPS from a 105 gr. 6mm to a 600 N.E., and they never shoot Weatherbys I don't think..

For one think they are very strict about bruising meat, they don't like that, as they use the meat for all kinds of wonderfull treats such as dry vores (SP?) jerky and whatever..Properly prepared dry vores are absolutly delicious...I know many Africans that simply shoot solids on all game and do rather well...

A lesson many of us in the states should abide by. I have always felt much game meat is wasted in the states as many people have never developed a taste for game meat, I suspect.