The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores "...wad or filler is an absolutely rotten idea."Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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In the book, Any Shot You Want, when the idea of filling excessive airspace in a cartridge is discussed (page 81), they say, "After much testing I can conclusively state that the wad or filler is an absolutely rotten idea. The pressure spikes and other problems with the wad or filler are almost unbelievable unless you are looking at the laboratory results. Further, I believe that filler material being left behind in the bore is much more common than we think. It has been documented in our laboratory. Numerous shooters trying to zero and regulate double rifles have also reported seeing bits of filler left behind in the bore. Under no circumstances (with the exception of the bullet base lubrication wad in certain blackpowder applications) should a filler or filler wad be used. The only safe and reliable way to ensure ignition in a large capacity case is by selecting a slower, bulkier powder to fill the case." Well, after having ordered a bunch of Kynoch wads as well as dacron, I read the comments above. So many of you have had such good luck using RL-15 and dacron or Kynoch wads. Why the stark differences of opinion? | ||
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While I can't comment from personal experience with big-bore rifles you're talking about, my experience with fillers is not necessarily negative but cautionary like the author of this statement. It simply is not a good thing to have a possible bore obstruction. The question is always how much filler was left in the bore. A smidgen, a bit of ash, or a rather large chunk? Chunks are not good and some people (me for one) will never feel comfortable as long as chunks are a possibility. And yes, you are correct, thousands perhaps even as many as millions of rounds have been fired with fillers without incident. Still... | |||
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Alphin's main concern seems to have been pressure spikes. Without more data, demonstrating how bad the problem is, though, it's hard to know how to react. I do know that in ASYW, Alphin pressure tested every load reported and was religious about sticking to SAAMI and CIP specs, both as to the maximum average and at the upper end of the range. It's hard to believe that left over filler would be so serious as to constitute a bore obstruction or otherwise cause damage to the rifle. | |||
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You've got to remember when this was written, .....7 or 8 years ago, and quite a variety of items were being tested as fillers with the result that there was a lot of ringing, etc. A year ago I talked long with Kynoch about the use of their foam wads, .........bottom line, in their opinion, was that they should be used if there was more than 3/8" air space, or you could get ringing! They'd tested them and were confident that they were safe, .....and they must be, as no one has reported any trouble with them, and Kynoch uses them in their own ammo. ~Arctic~ | |||
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Gentlemen, Once again I would direct your attention to tthis link Reloading the Nitro Express by Ross Seyfried Ross is a learned reloader and the article is quite simple. RL-15 closely matches the pressure curve of Cordite. The Dacron poly filler takes up the space not used by the powder and holds it against the primer. This combination gives you the most uniform velocities you can ever imagine in your double rifle. Period! The soft daron tuft is spat out the bore. It looks undamaged like it could be reloaded. No smoke and mirros here guys just a simple technique that works! It is used by several members of this and other forums who reload old Nitro Express rifles. As far as Art Alpin goes, well let's just say,. . . .Not worth the bandwith! | |||
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I don't like wads either, and have to agree with A Square that there is almost always a bulkier/slower powder available to fill the case. Rusty, Reloder 15 DOES NOT closely match the curve of Cordite! Cordite is closer to IMR3031 or IMR4198 and is closest to Reloder 7. The reason for using Reloder 15 is that pressures don't spike as quickly so it is FAR more forgiving when "developing" new loads for old double rifles. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Rusty, I read and saved that article by Ross when you posted it a few weeks ago and learned a lot by doing so. I still thought it was very interesting, if not perplexing, to see such a contradictory opinion in a well regarded reloading book. Quite possibly wads made from dacron were not included in the trials the book's authors used. | |||
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I guess I might as well chime in too. According to Graeme Wright in his book "...the foam is totally crushed during firing and comes out as fine plastic grit." That said, I have fired approxomately 120 rounds so loaded and neither me nor my reloading friends have experenced any hint of trouble in so doing. The bores of our guns look no different than after firing Federal factory loads. Aparently Graeme Wright and David Little Of Kynoch are in constant communication. At least that is the impression one is left with on reading this book. A previous poster stated that Kynoch uses these foam wads in their NE loads. I was able to verify this fact also, at the SCI convention in Las Vegas 2003. I cannot invision Kynoch loading ammunition which has even a remote potential for damaging so many high end rifles. If one is in any way involved in the shooting of, reloading for, or regulation of double barreled rifles, this book is a must read item. In it he goes into great detail on the very topics which repeatedly grace these threads. Wright doesn't give opinions, he gives data and backs it up by stating his research methods. The book is only 160 pages and practically every page is packed with info. There is quite a dissertation on the very subject of wads and fillers of every type in two of the chapters. Geronimo | |||
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I think there is a point overlooked in the discussion regarding wads and fillers. They aren't the same thing. JMO but the true hazard isn't so much what your doing but how you're doing it. Wads should not be compressed on the powder in such a fashion that air space remains between bullet base and wad. Seat them with the bullet, not before. My only use for wads(card) is with paper patch loads, and I've found little reason to delve into synthetic tuft fillers. Not arguing against them but I think they should be properly employed or not used at all. Seldom do I see anybody address this when discussing the matter. | |||
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Is the foam Kynoch use polystyrene(sp)? | |||
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I beg to differ. RL 15 does closely match the pressure curve of cordite. Again, I refer you to SHOOTING THE ENGLISH DOUBLE RIFLE page 139 there are two graphs done by the Birmingham Proof House represented there. One is a pressure curve of cordite with superimposed RL 15 pressure curve. The other is a cordite pressure curve with a superimposed AR 2214 (an Aussie powder)curve. Both of these powders have very similar curves to cordite. Geronimo | |||
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Geronomo ADI in their wisdom have stopped making 2214, had a nice load for 7mmRem Mag as well  Here is ADI site page on powder equivalents - nothing to do with pressure peaks though 2213 (not 2213sc) has also joined the no longer made list, had a nice load for the 6mmRem AI for that one as well. ADI make some of the powders for Hogdon like Varget. Think the Hogdon site lists the Aussie made powders. Also note that the powder numbers are not in burning rate sequence, while 2218 is the slowest 2219 is at the fast end. ADI powder equivalents | |||
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Thanks Geronimo. That was the imformation I had! | |||
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 this is what I use in my 450/400 3 inch and 475#2 Jeffery. | |||
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Quote: AC, I strongly suggest that you quit relying so much on your magic software calculations. It doesn't make you a ballistics expert. Have you read Shooting the British Double Rifle: A Modern Guide for Load Development and Use (second edition) by Graeme Wright? He did pressure tesing at Kynoch Ammunition (Kynamco in Britain) with a variety of powders and nitro cartridges. RL-15 very closely follows the cordite pressure curve. -Bob F. | |||
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OOH NOOO!!!! does that mean all shotgun loads are now to be considered unsafe? LMAO did the fella mention the dangers of hangfires with doubles and/or the dreaded slow powder/low capacity/gun explodes issue? pure bunk jeffe | |||
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Spring, Art Alpin wouldn't know a proper load from a case full of talcum powder! His statement that you simply use a bulkier powder to fill the large NE cases, is simply stupid, no other way to say it! I would like him to suggest the powder that would fill a 475#2 NE case without developing enough pressure to blow a double rifle to hell! He can't, and everyone who has been around loading for more than 30 days, knows it! Art is a legend only in his own mind! A man with zero credibility, IMO! There is a problem with people who only hear of a filler, and don't learn if it works, or how to use it if it does. The use of things like cream of wheat for fillers is not reccomended, but you will find those who still try it, and ring their chambers, or destroy their rifle, and maybe their fingers as well. Creame of wheat is used to fire form cases WITHOUT a bullet, by holding the rifle barrel up and fireing a forming charge to expand the case to match the chamber. It has never been reccomended as a filler for loaded ammo. Things like this taken out of context, are where these horror stories come from. The use of polyester fiber fill (white pillow stuffing), is the best media for filler in NE cases, and should be just enough so that the filler is slightly compressed when the bullet is seated. This stuff is not burned at all, and is as slick as snot in the case, being easily compressed through a bottle neck case without a problem. If wads are used, they must be against the bullet, but the fiber fill is better anyway. Additionally, anyone who depends on balistics softwear to work up loads for a double rifle is practiceing an exercise in futility, and may be about to destroy a fine old double rifle! More double rifles chambered for the large NE cartridges, have been damaged by the use of IMR 3031 than any other powder. RL-15, or IMR4831, by formula is the best choice for NE proofed rifles, and IMR4198 for Nitro for black powder loads. all three with the air space taken up by fiberfill! | |||
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I know NOTHING about loading for English Doubles, and just want to let interested parties know that it might be fun to experiment with AA5744 in that context. As you may or may not know, this powder was specifically developed for low density loads in big bore cases and is very impressive when used that way. It has no coating and is coarse extruded with 20% NG. Hans at the AA lab says that it is a "self-sustaining" powder, meaning that its burn rate is not influenced much by pressure and it is VERY easy to ignite. I have used it in many applications, but the closest thing to your English Big bores is my 458 Win mag Double. This takes 46 grs of XMP5744 as a max load to drive a 500 gr Hornady 1900 fps. I have AA data that gives 55 grs for a 350 gr cast in the 416 Rigby at 2173 fps, so it is used in low pressure applications. | |||
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Geronomo and Rusty, Wow it says it in a book it must be true! Okay explain this boys, why does it take 15% MORE RELODER 15 TO EQUAL THE CORDITE LOAD????? Good grief you guys lack even COMMON SENSE! Reloder 15 burns considerably slower than Cordite. Reloder 7 is pretty damned close to the burn rate of a cordite, if you goof up and put an extra grain of Rel 7 in your "antique" double rifle, it may well be off for a new hinge pin and hook rework, just like if you did with Cordite. An extra grain of Rel 15 should not incur any damage to your rifle. But hell this is a free country believe whatever you want! I have guys telling me how their case heads expand 0.002" after each shot! Heck there is only ~ 0.001 of interference fit between a new case and a new primer. If they were ACTUALLY getting 0.002" case head expansion, they sure as hell would not be reloading those cases! I told you why they use Reloder 15, deal with! ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Quote: Scott, because it works and there is little risk of the load is slightly off and that doubles seem to prefer a less peaky powder. pretty simple, actually, as it works, it's gentle on the gun, and not subject to ruining them. Besides, there's a formula for subsitution, not a 1 to 1 replacement... i hope you are not suggesting that we go back to cordite? btw, rl 7 in a 500 jeffe is probably a bad idea jeffe | |||
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AC, You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This isn't about matching powders on a burn rate chart and then loading to the same charge weight grain-for-grain as cordite. That's what the guys (Americans) tried to do back in the 50s and 60s when they were first trying to figure out how to handload for double rifles in the old nitro calibers. IMR-3031 was the powder of choice, or so they thought, because it had a burn rate similar to cordite. They tried to load grain-for-grain to the cordite charge weight. Turned out this wasn't the best idea. Then, the next idea to take hold, was using slow burning powders that fill the case (like IMR-4831). Now, Ross Seyfried has been promoting the use of RL-15 for several years. Powder burn rates and pressure curves in a pressure test barrel are not the same thing. I really thought that you might have had a change of heart and decided to get honest in your postings on A/R. But, it seems to me you're back to your old ways of spewing forth bullshit. I seem to recall a past posting where you admited to owning only 3 or 4 guns. How many double rifles and nitro express cartridges have you handloaded for? And, yes I do own a .470 double rifle. -Bob F.  | |||
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BFaucett, You seem to have a problem with me. How MANY nitro express cartridges have YOU loaded with Cordite? Cordite is a PEAKY powder, just like Rel 7! As a nitro express propellant Cordite SUCKS. I tend to agree with everyone that Rel 15 is a FAR FAR better choice than Cordite, Rel 7, IMR3031, or IMR4895, etc!! I only pointed out the FACT, yes FACT, that Rel 15 DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME PRESSURE CURVE (which is BURN RATE) AS CORDITE! If Reloder 15 did have the same pressure curve as Cordite, then it would SUCK as a nitro express propellant! Good grief what a bunch of whiny children some of you guys are! Rel 15 is a better choice than IMR4831 or similar powders because it has a pressure curve which is closer to Cordite than IMR4831, now why, yes that is correct, IT IS A FASTER powder than IMR4831. So since the old double was regulated with a FAST powder the medium burn rate Rel 15 is a better choice than the slow burn rate IMR4831 with regard to matching the regulation characteristics of the rifle (read that 10 times or until it sinks in). Regulation in double rifles is a function of action deflections. Actions deflect in response to the loads applied to them. I gave up telling you guys anything about me a long time ago. You never believed anything I said. Unless of course I told you I was a fool, a liar, and an imbecile. Strange why that is. I figured out a long time ago who had any brains on this site and who was a boob. Put me back on ignore if you want. At least I can grasp the concept of plastic deformation, many here won't until some guys with a BA in english says it is so in a stinky gun magazine. Now to me that just illustrates how truly pathetic the educational system in the USA is with regard to math and science. It simply does not seem to exist. Done ranting. Back to my 30-06, 50 Beowulf, and BB gun.  PS that is a lovely Merkel 140 you are shooting there. I looked one over seriously once, but the stock was about an inch too short (even after installation of a recoil pad). It was a well balanced rig though with good sight alignment, and I did like it very much. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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jeffeosso, I have stated THREE times now why Rel 15 is NOT equivalent to Cordite in pressure characteristics and WHY Rel 15 is BETTER than Cordite. Read my entire posts as many times as it takes to understand what I am saying. I have had a nasty habit all my life of putting a large amount of information into a relatively short space of words. Please do not get you shorts in a bunch after the first sentence and not read the rest. Often I find those arguing with me are 90% or more in total agreement with me.  ASS_CLOWN | |||
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If the 1.19 reloader 15 to 1 cordite ratio works, who cares about the relative burn rates. I use dacron fiber to fill the airspace. As to quantity, use plenty, more is better than less. Too little filler is how ringed chambers come about. Bystanders are always impressed by the amount of fiber floating in the air when I shoot my .577 BPE. It ain't black powder smoke, but it will have to do. Dave | |||
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OK guys....this is about filler or NO filler...right? Would a few of you double users send me the usable case capacities, bore diameters and velocity expectations for you favorite rounds? I want to do a few tests to see if there is any potential for XMP5744 to do away...forever...with your need for fillers. If there is some POTENTIAL, then we might do a few accuracy tests on this forum and advance the state of the art. That would make me feel good, and we would be a TEAM, right? As an aside, the pressure curve discussion is pertinent, even if the arguement is not, because XMP5744 has a pressure curve that changes SHAPE with load density. This is part of being a "self-sustaining" powder that essentially has no fixed burn rate that one can put on a chart to compare with other powders. In some, if not many, low density applications increases in XMP5744 charge weight are associated with some increase in pressure but a flattening of the curve itself, so it behaves more like a slower powder as pressure rises. At some charge weight in a particular big bore it is therefore possible that we will match cordite very closely. If you give this some thought, you should be intrigued...i am! | |||
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Quote: Well, it's good to see Scott back to his old self. The whole, "Oh, I'm a scared newbie who has no clue" bit was getting old. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. So tell us Scott, did you really buy a RSM bored out to .505? Or was that a bit more bullshit to draw out the ones who have brains and the boobs? | |||
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AC Instead of ranting about something which you have never done, and which many, if not most of the posters here have, perhapse you should try reading the above references. There is a great wealth of information to be had at a nominal cost. Understand that most of us, regardless of our means, consider ownership of a double rifle a considerable investment of our time as well as money. From what I have read, most of the posters here are not unsophisticated yokels but rather they seem to be individuals astute enough to read and critically discuss issues of mutual interest, pass on personal experences, offer references, etc. This is how erudite and cultured individuals interact in society. We, as a group find, that when an individual enters into such discussions with a pompous and bombastic aire coupled with unsubstantiated data, it amounts to intellectual dishonesty. You have not read any of the mentioned reference materials. It is immediately obvious by your comments. For example, in response to your offhand comment to the effect that just because it's written it doesn't have to be true. Well, consider the source. Yes, I would tend to believe pressure data done at the Birmingham Proof House and published by Kynamco. I would certainly believe those data a whole lot quicker than data from someone on this website whose veracity is under serious question. AC, this is a free country(except when paying taxes). You have every right to say whatever you please. We too share that right as well as the right to accept or reject what is said. If you feel so strongly that most of us are ignorant, recalcitrant boobs, then why don't you just go find other, more intelligent types with whom you are better matched intellectually. It would save us all a great deal of unecessary acrimony. I happen to enjoy this forum. I learn from other's experiences and share my own. I don't however, enjoy your rude and juvenile attacks on just about anything or anyone you don't happen to agree with. There are ways to discuss matters intellegently, however from what I have seen, your dialog skills and people skills need some serious honing. In closing, I would like to suggest that it is not necessary to try to refute every every damn thing you see written here. Many of us have several years of reading, researching, and doing what we talk about here. May I suggest that you just try listening. Examine the concept that maybe, just maybe, your opinion might not be correct. I have to do this from time to time myself. It's tough, but unless you do this you won't ever learn anything new. Geronimo | |||
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*** You are ignoring this loser ***  | |||
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Geronimo, Well said. -Bob F. | |||
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Quote: Sabot, I assume we're talking about the Accurate Arms 5744 here. I've seen it abbreviated as XMP-5744 and AA-5744. I believe 5744 is useful for reduced velocity, low pressure loads. I don't know if it can be used to try to create full velocity loads in the old Nitro cartridges. I've never worked with it. Anyway, this is from Accurate's web site 5744 is a short cut, extruded, double base rifle propellant. Its burn rate is between our No. 9 and 1680. It is not intended to set new velocity records. What it will do, however, is allow you to shoot reduced loads, without fillers, in just about any cartridge, especially the older, low pressure, rifle cartridges. IHMSA shooters take note, it is also useful in large capacity handgun cartridges. 5744 has some very specific design criteria. First, it is double base with a high percentage of Nitroglycerin. This gives the propellant a high energy content. It also promotes consistent ignition even with low volume powder charges in the large capacity "old timers' such as the 50 Sharps. In fact, the 50 Sharps was used in some of the development work for this propellant. Nitroglycerin contributes to excellent shelf life and reduces the effects of humidity and temperature. Second, 5744's short length provides uniform metering so you can spend more time shooting and less weighing charges. Third, 5744 has a relatively low bulk density. This contributes to its ease of ignition. In fact, ease of ignition and consistent velocity, regardless of powder position in the case, are the two main criteria we set in manufacturing new 5744.< !--color--> Also, you might want to check out this thread: XMR 5744 and cast slugs in 470 NE -Bob F. | |||
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As per Butch Searcy's advice I use 40grs of XMR 5744 to push my 500gr reduced lead loads in my .470. They function very well. And also per Butches advice I use no filler with them but only with a federal 215 Mag primer. After several hundred rounds I've had no problems what so ever. My other load is 97grs of H4350 pushing a 500gr X bullet at 2150 (chronoed) there is some airspace in the round but not much. This load is my rifles favorite fodder and has proven very reliable. I use 108Grs of IMR 4831 for the woodliegh bullets. This load requires no wad or filler as it fills the case very nicely. The only load in which Butch recomends filler is with RL 15. I've stayed away from filler or wads as much as possible but wouldn't be adverese to using them if the load required it.. | |||
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Hey guys, That is just some more of ASS CLOWNS constant bull shit, he and Art Alphin would make a team for sure...I would bet they like the same stock design...He has a toy and has not yet learned to use it. To not use a filler with many load combinations with double rifles is absurd to begin with and dangerous to end with. RL-15 is one of the best double rifle powders, and pretty well put IMR-3031 out of the loop. Fillers have been an accepted method for near 150 years or about whenever smokeless powder came about.. I still use Dacron, but Kynoch is using a foam that is very simular to the grey foam in gun cases..One can get into filler problem when using the wrong kind of foam, and it is hard for the average reloader to identify foam, so I stay with my old tried and true dacron from the upholstry shop... | |||
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Geronomo, Your post is excellent. I apologize for my statements. I know I can me an opinionated jerk, and sometimes I lose control of myself. I now realize that the 19% difference if loads is not due to pressure curve differential, thank you for clearing that up with the reference to the Birmingham proof house, but powder density. I will mind my own business and listen instead of talk to you learned men here on the big bore forum, in hopes of actually learning something! ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Thanks for the reply. I have discussed the potential of 5744 with Johan Loubster at AAs labs and they are now publishing loads for it in many high pressure rounds. I use their data and email back my own results. In every case, it gave me the smallest SD in velocity of any powder I have used in the rounds tested. It drives a 270 Hornady 2500 fps in the 375 H&H at max pressure, using only 54 grs of powder. Just 47 grs in the 458 Win makes 1900 fps with a 500 gr bullet. These are not puny cast bullet loads. Both are 200 fps slower than the optimal powder would be, using 36% less propellant. When we go to the lower pressure of the English doubles, it might even close the gap. | |||
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Without having a laboratory and done the testing (not qualified) I will not dispute Art Alphin's results or Ross Seyfried's recommendations either. We've discussed this before, and given the risks associated with firearms and handloading for odd rifle cartridges, I did make some changes. I don't like hangfires much, so after some excitement with the starting loads in my .51 Gibbs, I started using polyolefin foam cylinders on top of the powder, with the cylinders being large enough so they would be compressed between the base of the bullet and powder. Perfect, cracking ignition every time. Safer than hangfires, right? But there was some debate about the use of foam and fillers in general. And what little organic chemistry I had had was far behind me, and I was concerned that the foam and/or other plastics might have corrosive halogens (chlorine, fluorine, bromine?) in them which might damage the bore. Part of the problem was solved by getting past the light slow-powder loads to full and compressed slow-powder loads. No filler needed there..... Which left the medium/slow powder high-performance loads. During the last round of reloading I used a single sheet of toilet paper, folded into a small square and stuffed straight down the neck so all four corners fold up, pushed down to compress the powder against the bottom of the case, and then followed by a bullet. A sheet of toilet paper weighs less than 5 grains, a rather small fraction of the bullet weight. It's difficult to imagine that if the wad or filler is reasonably inert and does not have any peculiar hydraulic effects (theorized by some), it does not behave no worse than an additional small increment of bullet weight. If I ever finish restocking (Christmas?), perhaps I will see.....has anybody actually seen filler placed in front of the powder, that does not melt, stick to and remain in the bore? I recall one of our members uses cotton balls from the drugstore? | |||
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Quote: SDS , your discription of your TP wad is not quite clear to me! Are you sugesting placeing a wad of any kind on top of the powder, that doesn't also touch the base of the bullet? If so, you are simply asking for a real surprise, one fine day. There should never be ANY airspace between any kind of wad, and the base of a bullet!  | |||
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The only problems that occur with fillers today are when the wrong substance is use it will ring the chamber, this is caused by the flatten out of some foam fillers thus creating an airspace, thus a ringed chamber...That is mostly why I have stuck with dacron and I use plenty of it..upon firing it will come out behind the bullet in a perfectly shaped relitivly hard bullet form about 3/4"s of an inch long and could be reloaded I suspect. As to foam if i could positively identify the foam plugs that is used by Kynoch, and looks like that grey stuff in guncases, then I might switch, but until I know what I am sticking down one of my cases I will just stay with the inconvience of dacron and the stuffing of it down the case with a yellow pencil that has never been sharpened.  My Searcy double will shoot 108 grs. of IMR-4831 no filler, 85 grs. of RL-15 with 4 or5 grs. of dacron, with 500 gr. bullets of several makes and 45 grs of XMP-5744 with a filler and any 400 to 425 gr. lead bullet to the same POI...very nice of a double, it sure explods a lot of old myths and apparantly the other searcy rifles will do likewise from the folks on this boards reports...Must be the new technology...At any rate it is certainly welcome. | |||
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