I want to get back to Africa for more the experience of the bush and a chance to hunt some cull animals, ideally a buffalo. Budgets are and always will be tight. And I live in the UK. Over here having anything more than a 30-06 is problematical as regards firearms licensing. You can get a licence to possess a big bore rifle to use overseas, but difficult to get ammo for practice and only then will it be solids and in limited amounts. So even if get my own large bore rifle, I would unable to use it very much before I went on safari. And I almost certainly would nt have it authorised for use on deer - we have a min velocity requirement of 2450 fps.

Thus should I just not bother with a large bore rifle and all the hassle of travelling with a rifle and just on from the PH when I get there. Is this a realistic possibility.

Almost all the outfitters have loaner rifles in camp. Just let your outfitter know when you book the hunt. If you have a preference for a particular rifle or cartridge then let him know that also. They will probably have a 375 H&H in camp for clients along with possibly a 458 Win Mag or a 416 Rem Mag.

They will probably charge you $100 or so for the week and will also charge you for the ammunition. As long as you don't mind shooting an unfamiliar rifle with unknown loads you should be fine. I'm reluctant to hunt Dangerous Game with an unfamiliar rifle, myself.

If you are "average" size no modifications. However, if like me I'd take slip-on pads (or whatever you like) to get a proper cheek-weld/achieve the same shooting orientation you practice at home. Were it not for the investment already made I might opt to rent next time...

No problem getting 2450fps with the 505gibbs and 535gr bullets and it is perfect for deer

Really, get yourself a 375 H&H with 270-300gr premium ammo which would meet the fps requirements and probably the least hassle to get ammo for since it is about everywhere. I also would not take on dangerous game with a loaner rifle...your life might depend on that rifle/ammo combo of unknown reliability.

I'm sure you can make arrangements for a rifle, but if I lived where I couldn't buy a rifle I wanted, I'd move. I know that isn't particurlarly helpful. Maybe it belongs on the Policcal Forum.

Umm, he lives in Scotland. I don't quite think "moving" is the real option.

Yes, rentals are usually available. The PH typically considers the need for a rental rifle to be part of the business. Rifles get lost...ammo gets lost...and the client has the tip/paycheck.

I'd ask the question "What Rifle/Ammo would you offer if I needed to borrow the gun?" - wouldn't surprise me if the PH had access to a current edition M70 Winnie or something. If he had the same stock shape as your own rifle (*custom fitted stocked rifles the obvious exception) then why not ditch the hassle of traveling with the rifle altogether?

I PREFER to hunt with my own rifles but I sure wouldn't let it stop me from hunting!

Borrow/rent a rifle if you want to, though I prefer hunting with my own rifles and own loads.

the 416 Rigby can be safely handloaded to 2800+ fps with 350grain TSX buffalo medicine, so you could probably get a deer licence and practice shooting in Scotland.

I sympathize with anyone where the government steps in and starts giving ignorant advice and making demands, even in the face of dangerous game animals that can kill the hunter for the government's mistakes and stupidity. Can the law be challenged in court?

When I read the title of your post my first thought was that if you want a big bore that probably means DG is on the menu and I would never want to hunt DG with someone else's rifle if I could help it. After reading your post I can certainly sympathize with your dilemma.
If you don't feel it is worth the hassle of getting a 375H&H (I certainly would in your case but I'm not you) your outfitter or PH should be able to set you up with a rifle although some loaner rifles are not that great.

Do whatever you can to screw with your government. Get a gun that just meets your laws and shoot the hell out of it. Take it to Africa and send the pics to the"officials". Have as much fun with this as you can stomach.-Rob

It never stops to amaize me where these laws and regulations comes from. 2450fps is ok and and 2449fps is no no. I only hope it doesn't mean 2451fps hornet is legal and 2449fps A2 700gr is ilegal.
What they go by to determine the legal velocity, is it the factory published loading or do you have bring and shoot your rifle over their chrony?

Thanks for all your thoughts chaps.

In answer to your question Pyzda, the firearms authorities tend to go on factory published data. There is also a rule as to minimum bullet weight of 50g for Roe deer and 100g for Red, Fallow nd Sika deer with a min muzzle velocity of 2450fps - thats for Scotland.

In England and Wales, they have a min claibre of .240 - or just for Muntjac and Chiness Water dee, .22 centre fire, together with a minimum muzzle energy.

So yes you can shoot any deer you like with a 243 and a 100gn bullet at 2451 fps, but you cannot use a 458 mega blaster with a 500g bullet travelling at 2400 fps.

Calibres such as the 6.5 MS which has a 160gn bullet at 2350fps have become illegal for use on deer in scotland nad thus much more difficult to justify owning one for deer stalking. You can argue the case and much easier now that there are factory available loadings with 140 gn at c2,700 fps.

As regards the big calibres, there are very few dedicated ranges that have been cleared for the muzzle energy generated by even 375 H&H let alone bigger stuff. Most Police Firearms licencing will just let you possess a large calibre with authority to transport it to an airport to go overseas, or to use it solely for zeroing purposes with non-expanding ammunition on ranges certified by the ministry of defence for that claibre and energy of weapon.

Hence my question - even if you can get a big rifle, chances are you will only fire it a very few times before going overseas. I think I would much rather use somebody elses rifle that has had all the bugs etc shaken out of it.

Regime change needed over there too

Those laws really make no sense to me

I was fortunate to have a chance to shoot birds when in hunting in Africa, the borrowed gun didn’t work for me.

Look at the cost and effort in getting to Africa, don’t risk it with a borrowed gun that spoils the hunt.

As for our Police, you can persist and even if you can only practise with solids, at least you can get familiar with the rifle.

Ask your PH in some detail. Mine had an old .375 with iron sights and a modern .416 Model 70 with Leupold scope. I would have had no trouble hunting with the latter.

I think "practice" is overrated. You can build the same kind of muscle memory shooting almost any rifle with similar stock dimensions and safety. I think I only practiced about 75 rounds--not counting sighting in and load development, which is bench stuff and hardly practice, with my new .375 before my last safari.

Actually my best "practice" was sporting clays shotgun shooting with a 12 gauge O/U. I got both my buff and elephant with a running shot. On my prior safari, my first shot (of five) on a buff was running and also would have been fatal. My second elephant shot was while it was running away.

On my first trip to africa, I went on a buffalo hunt, with my 470 double. I have never shot a double before, shot my gun about 6 times before my trip, had no problems at all with a " unfimilar" gun. A gun is a gun. People are too fuzzy about LOP, trigger weight push feed or CRF. As long as it goes bang when you pull the triger, thats all that matters.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Savikataaq Jr:
I have never shot a double before, shot my gun about 6 times before my trip...

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Savikataaq Jr:
As long as it goes bang when you pull the triger, thats all that matters.

Not for me. I'll swallow my pride and air out my dirty laundry here. A look at my hunting notes from the last 26 yrs (how the hell did I get to be 44?) shows that 2 of the 3 animals I've wounded and lost have been with borrowed rifles. Actually, I suck with rifles I'm not familiar with. I'm working on it, but I still suck. Doing the math and including 2 animals that required a follow up more complicated than walking up and putting in a finisher, my wounding rate with borrowed rifles is almost 7x higher with a borrowed rifle than with one I'm familiar with. Familiar meaning I've run about a box of ammunition through it.

If it means the difference between going hunting or not, I'll happily grab an unfamiliar weapon every time. That said, I really should spend a bit of time on the range with it before going into the field.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Savikataaq Jr:
On my first trip to africa, I went on a buffalo hunt, with my 470 double. I have never shot a double before, shot my gun about 6 times before my trip, had no problems at all with a " unfimilar" gun. A gun is a gun. People are too fuzzy about LOP, trigger weight push feed or CRF. As long as it goes bang when you pull the triger, thats all that matters.

If you have all the time in the world like sitting in a stand, sorting out an unfamiliar rifle may be OK but if you are hunting DG and something comes out of the bush close by trying to bite or stomp you or even if that once in a lifetime kudu flushes and you only have a split-second shot, I would prefer to be carrying a firearm I am familiar with. YMMV

If you have all the time in the world like sitting in a stand, sorting out an unfamiliar rifle may be OK but if you are hunting DG and something comes out of the bush close by trying to bite or stomp you or even if that once in a lifetime kudu flushes and you only have a split-second shot, I would prefer to be carrying a firearm I am familiar with. YMMV



If you have to be so good and so familar with your guns, then what is the PH there for, if hes there just to judge the trophy why does he carry a gun?

I think you know the answer to that if you've been to Africa.

Many of our posters with military experience have been issued loaner guns of uncertain quality and poor fit for DG hominid hunting on the two way range.